TheSamba.com :: View topic - I have a question on flexible brake lines.

Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:28 pm

Since almost everything else is the same on IRS model T-3's why is it that the auto trans model requires different rear brake hoses?

I never saw a MT model yet I know on these the trans and diff are one housing plus the drive axles are the same length . The auto trans model is completely different and wider and has the off set diff closer to the right side.

Both use the same Brass T fitting and both use metal lines from the T to the area where the flexible lines connect so why the right line with the 2 female ends? Is the T in a different location on both and if so is this for access so one can change the lines without removing axles or other parts?

Even if the T was further to the right on an auto trans why make the line with both ends female? If I recall the short metal lines to the rear cylinders are the same and each has a male end and the female end of the rear flex hose is there. Does the right auto flex hose fit right on the T fitting.

Anyone know?

Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:54 am

I really don't remember the wheres or whys. But I do remember that the right (passenger) side was a bitch to change.

Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:59 am

the autobox is physically bigger and has that sump. It's probably just in the way of "normal" routing so needs to be longer

Whats the issue, cant find one? I think I normally use bus hoses anyways, a little longer if I recall.

Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:08 pm

Multi69s wrote: I really don't remember the wheres or whys. But I do remember that the right (passenger) side was a bitch to change.

I imagine it is. I looked at them a few years ago yet can't recall what was in the way.

Seems like almost everything on these cars has been put in places that takes up every tiny space in order to allow room for people and cargo.

It's not as difficult as many small cars I worked on in all the years I was a tech especially front wheel drive water cooled cars. Yet at my age it's not so easy.

I had quite a few tools working as a tech since 72 and had my tool box stored in the back room at a ford dealer I worked at. When I was offered the title as shop foreman / assistant service manager in 99 I put them is a room where I was told they would be secure except one night someone cut the chain link fence that was over the out door alley door and no one locked the metal door took my box and quite a few shop tools . I was told they would not cover the loss and all I had at home were tools I used to work on my car here in my garage. I still have my air tools and 3/8" sockets and 1/4" and wrenches yet all my 1/2" drive tools are gone all the extensions and sockets other than one breaker bar and some old craftsman deep sockets and a few short impact sockets. Now if I need something I don't have I end up at autozone and they aren't cheap some tools they loan . Still have my high tech creeper and 2 small floor jacks and two jack stands and a few bottle jacks. Yet it's not even close to working with a hoist . You can only get the car up so high on jack stands even then you end up with your nose near something and a creeper does not fair well if you need to really pull on something. I thought of getting two ramps yet you can only use them at one end at a time since they are to high to get under the rear and front and drive up . Don't have room to use a full size floor jack in my garage so I guess I need 2 more stands or a pair of ramps that don't slid on concrete. The front is not so bad but the rear is one side up than the other until the stands are high enough or the car tries to slide sideways since I place the stands just inside the tube for the rear torsion bars never on the cover end where the cover is.

Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:01 am

https://www.quickjack.com/car-lift-systems/bl-3500slx-portable-car-lift.html

Pricey, and I'm not sure they fit our short wheelbase cars. But they don't take up much space, and don't need side clearance in your garage.

Discussed here:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683430

Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:12 am

Another alternative might be to use a set of ramps. Then you might be able to get under the rear of the car. :wink:

Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:19 am

I looked at ramps. I had a pair of metal ones some one gave me from work years ago and they just slid forward . I gave them away.

Most of them now are a sort of plastic based material . Read a few reviews where they had something to keep from sliding yet most people said they either slid going up or off. Some said they crack .

The main problem I have is with my car pulled in forward as close to the wall as possible there is 4 feet behind it with the door closed. I pull it forward to work on the back and back as close to the door so it shuts to work on the front . I do so in case I can't finish a job in a day and it's a must to close the door where I live.

When I did the tie rod ends I built 12" x 12" square 3/4" plywood pads mounted on two 2x4's on edge even with the sides of the plywood pads then added a 2x4 brace between them so not to depend on the side 2x4's is case they moved apart . They held the car up fine in the front , it's not that heavy up front. I only used them under the tires so I could adjust the toe .

The issue with jack stands under the front it's either under the beam or as far back on the horns as possible . Either way the stands are in the way when I do the 2 port fuel pump . I did it before with the stands under the beam to change the fuel hoses and even though I'm not much more than 150 lbs it was a fight with the little room between the stands at their bases.

I thought I would use 4x4's and two layers of 3/4" plywood and just jack up the front on the center of the beam and use the new pads under the tires so I'll have plenty of room.

For the rear I either use one of the two small 2 ton floor jacks under the cast support front of the trailing arm or this tall crank style VW jack in the VW provided points . Either way the front wheels also lift. Then I place the jack stands as far out as I can on the tube where the rear torsion bars fit not on the tube outer ends where the cover is but on the inner side of the spring plates. As I said if I lift to high on one side before placing a jack stand when I let the car down on the stand the car will slid on the stand so I need to go side to side about three times to get it up high enough . There is really no other place to put the stands without doing damage . Even if I had a full sized floor jack there is no place to lift the car in the rear center that I can see without doing damage .

I can't afford a lift like the one Phil suggested and I can't say I would trust it. They had a better one at the last Ford dealer I worked at for changing tires and it was not something I would get under the car using , it would rock side to side and looked like it would fold up like a cheap screen door .

I'd like to know how others here raise the rear up using jack stands .

Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:35 pm

I pulled the whole rear subframe using a Harbor Freight jack and some jack stands I bought 10+ years ago. The car has been sitting on these jack stands for three months now while I wait for a new engine/transmission. The jack stands are sitting on the jacking points on the original pan. I was initially skeptical about them but they are sturdy. I don't like to work under janky/unsafe conditions and I make sure I've got a sturdy base because I don't want anything falling over. As it sits, the car is super sturdy and doesn't move at all. I also stacked the wheels I removed under the rear end of the car in the even the jack stands fail - the car will fall onto the stacked wheels (this pic was taken before I stacked the wheels).

Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:36 pm

I jack up one side on the stock jacking point and place the jack stand under the spring plate in front of the rear wheel or under the shock absorber mount. Then I go around and do the other side.

Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:38 pm

Back to the rear flex lines... is there any reason why this seemingly odd configuration might make it easier (faster/cheaper) to install them on the assembly line? Depending on the order of installing everything back there, it might make sense. The added cost of a "custom" part may mitigate the savings, but if it saves a buck a car, it adds up.

Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:55 pm

I usually use the VW jack point and block off the opposite side wheels and place the stands inboard on the torsion bar tube and it's solid yet they are sometimes to close together like when I changed the auto trans filter . they would be further out if I set them under the spring plate which is the heavy cast section just ahead of the rear wheels . Sometimes I use the spring plate if I use my small floor jack . Either way the front wheels raise up and need to be blocked opposite sides and I never raise the front until the rear is up where I want it.

I need to get two more jack stands. What I'm working on soon is changing the fuel pump and whether I place the jack stands under the beam as close as I can to the beam supports or if I place them further back on the frame tubes as far back as possible they are still to close together . In order to use my creeper which I prefer I might just use the pads I made to do my own toe in and just set them under the tires . I may need to make them taller and can lag bolt 4x4's on the bottom of these pads which are 12"x 12" 3/4" plywood bolted to 12" long 2x4's on edge and a 2x4 support between them so they can't move. I used 4" long lag bolts for the 2x4's and 4 2" long wood screws on each side to hold the 3/4" ply to the 2x4's . Plus I used tite bond wood glue on all joints. I probably will need to go higher and maybe add two 4x4's 90 degrees under the 2x4's in a way I can remove them and so they can't move maybe with 2 pins made out of 3/8" diameter bolts with the heads cut off on each end. And the jack stands under the two U shaped channels under the floor pan just as added measure. I thought about placing the stands near the area behind the front wheel wells where the pan bolts to the body with wood on top so as not to screw up that area since it's not quite the same as where the stock lift points are.

Years ago at work we had the twin post above ground hoists and I'd place the rear pads on the bottom of the rear spring arm cast support and the front pads on the front of the two U shaped floor reinforcements are far forward as possible and it was steady and didn't bend the floor or the U shaped channels . Most of the weight is on the rear .

As they are now it raises the front about 4"

Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:17 pm

QuickJack 5000# version is now $1200 at Costco:
https://www.costco.com/quickjack-5,000lb.-slx-capa...66851.html

This is oversize for a VW but it fit my Type 3 fine, and the Bugs have the same wheel bace, so I would think it would work.

Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:09 am

blues90 wrote: Since almost everything else is the same on IRS model T-3's why is it that the auto trans model requires different rear brake hoses?

Anyone know?

They don't. Both AT and MT use the same right hand hose (M/F ends). This is where parts catalogs get this wrong, thinking an IRS type 3 is the same as a bug, or swing axle type 3.

Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:30 am

Bobnotch wrote: blues90 wrote: Since almost everything else is the same on IRS model T-3's why is it that the auto trans model requires different rear brake hoses?

Anyone know?

They don't. Both AT and MT use the same right hand hose (M/F ends). This is where parts catalogs get this wrong, thinking an IRS type 3 is the same as a bug, or swing axle type 3.

one of the rear hoses is longer is what i was told because the T is left of center on the auto trans.

Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:43 am

blues90 wrote: Bobnotch wrote: blues90 wrote: Since almost everything else is the same on IRS model T-3's why is it that the auto trans model requires different rear brake hoses?

Anyone know?

They don't. Both AT and MT use the same right hand hose (M/F ends). This is where parts catalogs get this wrong, thinking an IRS type 3 is the same as a bug, or swing axle type 3.

one of the rear hoses is longer is what i was told because the T is left of center on the auto trans.

The longer hose is for the left rear and is a hold over of the swing axle trans. The right hose is the short hose (actually shorter than the bus), and has M&F ends, while the left has just male ends on it. The common replacement back in the day, was to use the bay bus right rear hose, and not worry about it being slightly too long, as the ends were correct (which was more important).