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Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:14 pm

Hello All.. its my first time on this forum.

I'm working on a '71 Ghia restoration.

A concern I continually have with the Ghia is the HP with the stock engine. I'm seriously considering a Subaru engine swap. Wanted to share my research, hoping to connect with others that have done it, and open it up for feedback/ from the group.

I'm a noob to the mechanics/engine... but can certainly find my way around after doing research/reading... Biggest challenge so far has been trying to find others that have done the Suby swap.
Also, finances are tightly monitored by the Misses for this project... so gotta do everything myself. Getting hands dirty is fun so no worries here.

These are my goals for a Subabu engine swap:
- Increase HP with newer tech engine (Although it still may be ~20 years old)
- Keep costs low < $1,500 all parts
- Little to no fabrication. Definitely not something i can do or want to take on.

My research has lead me to the following sites which provide the greatest amount of detail on a Subaru swap/conversion; However, none of it is specific to a Ghia:

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=136053

www.rjes.com

http://www.vtpete.com/vw/labels/engine.html

I've narrowed the selection to the following types of engines that will require little to no fabrication.
EJ22 SOHC
EJ25 SOHC

Have been calling around to VW shops up and down California trying to connect to others that may have tried it... but no success.

After a call to one company that does VW custom engines & conversion... i'm a little discouraged.
Was told that the conversion would require special catalytic converter, muffler, fabrication, transmission, engine weight considerations.. and on and on... But I'd say that +90% of this stuff is covered in the links above (especially www.rjes.com). With the caveat being that the info is not specifically for a Ghia.

The real point of discouragement is with California emissions (smogging). The websites don't say anything about catalytic converters and specialized mufflers. Was told that all this would run into the tens of thousands $$$. Well, that ain't happening.

So that's where I'm at.

Really hoping to get feedback on how others have gotten over this hump... connect with those that have done the conversion or considering it... especially in California (Bay Area would be awesome).

Thanks!
-Z

Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:26 pm

I can't help you as far as the Ghia-related conversion items go. But being an on-and-off Porsche 914 owner, I can tell you that there are ALOT of 914 guys that have done Subi conversions on their 914's, and a lot of them are in CA. The smog thing is BS as far as I'm aware.

You might want to try posting over on 914world.com just about the conversion aspect because there's a lot of guys over there that are familiar with the subaru stuff. Many of them are also VW Beetle and Ghia owners, so you won't be too out of place over there.

Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:34 pm

Thanks Era Vulgaris.
Will definitely check that out too.

Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:08 pm

Scroll down to Technical/etc./etc. and look at the stickeys or post there. P.S. The Sube will have too much power and you will need super brakes, built trans., F.I. tank, radiator/ the list goes on you are not close on your est. of cost or complexity. Just build your VW a little, and you will have a car worth a LOT more and be happy as these things are light and its HP to Weight that gets you down the road fast. Just my 2 cents...maybe 3 cents.

Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:29 pm

This is your guy for Subaru swaps...his name is Andy. Believe he’s in Modesto, he does swaps for customers.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=15398

His personal car:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2090445

Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:53 pm

Ghia_SIngh wrote:
- Increase HP with newer tech engine (Although it still may be ~20 years old)
- Keep costs low < $1,500 all parts
- Little to no fabrication. Definitely not something i can do or want to take on.

The real point of discouragement is with California emissions (smogging). The websites don't say anything about catalytic converters and specialized mufflers. Was told that all this would run into the tens of thousands $$$.
Thanks!
-Z

Welcome and let me serve you a hard ,cold cup of reality...................

There is going to be a lot of money , thousands , spent to build any kind of HP engine for a VW. Air cooled or Subarau, doesn't matter. If you do all the work you can save some. Any thing cheaply done and thrown in ,will not last and only be wasted money. Ask your partner if she is ok with at least 4,000 for just the engine, If not , Then start saving till you have it. In the mean time you can do a lot of research to find what fits your needs. A Suby swap requires a lot of mods to the body to get motor and radiator to fit. Then $$$ for the brakes and Transaxle upgrades to handle the power. So the reality is if you have 10 grand stored away for the motor end of the project, than have at it . If not ,then rebuild the stock engine and enjoy the car the way it is.

Cali is smog exempt for 75 and earlier, So at least I gave you some positive news!

Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:21 am

" Keep costs low < $1,500 all parts
- Little to no fabrication. Definitely not something i can do or want to take on. "

:D

Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:52 am

The wiring is one thing that would concern me in a suby swap. I think you can get the whole motor and harness in your price range or close to it. Its all the other stuff that will kill the budget.

Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:20 pm

PeteSC Thanks for the contact info. Much appreciated!

Appreciate the concerns around budget.
But my research so far shows that its possible (Without having to cut up my Ghia)... a slight increase may be necessary. Can do some side work to bump that up.

Here are estimated high level costs:
Donor car with engine and most parts: ~$100-$300
Additional conversion parts: $500 - $1,000
Labor: Lots of pizza & favors

Certainly plan on continuing the research... and NOT apposed to dropping the idea if it looks like more than i can handle.

As far as the swap work, think my biggest challenge would be the wiring. I've done wiring on the Ghia and that was pretty easy. But the Suby electrical conversion looks daunting.

Will continue to share my findings.
Thanks everyone. Have a wonderful Thanksgiving!

Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:03 pm

A good rebuilt 165-185HP fuel injected Subi motor with a harness and brain is around $3500. You will need to cut the motor compartment up a little. You need to get a radiator and plumb it from the front of the car to the rear (2 lines). The weight is not an issue. Front disc brakes are all you need to stop it. You need an exhaust too. Smog is not an issue. I would budget $5000.

Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:15 am

$1500 max and no fabrication? Really? Having done a few swaps I can tell you your price is not realistic if you plan on being honest with your budget and yourself. Sure the big ticket items fit with your price, but by the time you're done adding up all the small bits, building a cooling system, building an exhaust. Wiring.... your budget will be long gone. It also sounds like you plan to just stab a junkyard motor onto an adapter and go. subaru engines are nice, but not immune to maintenance needs. You'll at a minimum want to replace the timing components and water pump. And I'll bet whatever engine you get 22 or 25 the valve covers leak. I just did a timing belt job on one of my Subaru's - the price of OEM timing parts might be a shocker...

A good running 1600 single or dual port has more than enough power to move a Ghia along. Word is, back when they were new people used them for all sorts of daily tasks. I'd spend the $1500 on upgrading the engine you have.

Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:29 am

Ghia_SIngh - I understand that you have concerns with the comparatively low HP rating of the stock Karmann Ghia aircooled engine, and realize that it certainly does pale in comparison with more modern cars (including even those modern cars that are already over 20 years old).

I wonder, though, if you are keeping in mind the fact that the Karmann Ghia is considerably lighter than any more modern car - we're talking about at least 1,000 lbs lighter.
The Karmann Ghia, therefore, does not "need" the same amount of HP that a 20 year old Subaru needed.

I'm curious if you've ever driven a Karmann Ghia - or any other aircooled model VW - that was fitted with a Volkswagen engine fitted with performance modifications.

You don't state specifically what your performance goals are, but unless you're ultimately looking to build something with crazy-stupid power and performance you just may have a better chance of reaching your performance goals and staying within your rather limited budget by sticking with a modified aircooled VW engine.

... plus, just think of all the money you'll save in speeding tickets and traffic violations alone by sticking with a stock or slightly modified VW engine! :wink:

Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:23 am

There is a saying with cars:

Fast, Cheap, Reliable. You can have any two.

Given you are a novice you may want to start with the engine you have and getting it sorted...and then decide what you want to do.

Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:29 am

KGCoupe wrote: ... The Karmann Ghia, therefore, does not "need" the same amount of HP that a 20 year old Subaru needed.

I'm curious if you've ever driven a Karmann Ghia - or any other aircooled model VW - that was fitted with a Volkswagen engine fitted with performance modifications.

You ... just may have a better chance of reaching your performance goals and staying within your rather limited budget by sticking with a modified aircooled VW engine...

I've been following this thread because a friend here in New Zealand is doing a Subaru conversion while I'm trying to build a more powerful engine for a third of his cost. While the final cost of the Subaru conversion is still to be determined, it far exceeds the cost anticipated here - as others have posted earlier.

What "performance modifications" would you suggest for a stock engine for this guy and a reasonable budget (($2500)? Balanced crank, Engel or EMPI cam, lightened and balanced flywheel, dual Kadrons, electronic distributor, freeflow exhaust? What else?

Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:37 am

I wouldn't feel safe going over 70 MPH in a Karmann Ghia with any engine.

I can keep up with my stock dual port 1600 up to that so I'm not sure of the advantages with a swap when there are many options to upgrade a stock engine.

Looking at just a couple pics of subaru swaps I can tell there is a lot of fabrication involved.

Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:13 am

kman wrote: I wouldn't feel safe going over 70 MPH in a Karmann Ghia with any engine.

I can keep up with my stock dual port 1600 up to that so I'm not sure of the advantages with a swap when there are many options to upgrade a stock engine.

Looking at just a couple pics of subaru swaps I can tell there is a lot of fabrication involved.
That's an easy fix.

Just drive around in a VW Thing at highway speeds for a little while, and then when you get back to driving the Karmann Ghia you'll feel much more safe.
:wink:

Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:47 pm

A guy at work just got 3 2.2’s, with harnesses, for just over a grand. Doesn't even know what to do with them yet, lol, but the price was right. As with most things, if you hunt, you can score.

Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:57 pm

Whats happening

Also in the bay area.

I am prepping for a Ghia Subaru swap now. But mine will be a very very very slow build .

From my research
At the bare minimum
I will need something like a kennedy engine adapter https://www.kennedyeng.com/engine-adapters $550
wiring kit from someplace like this http://www.autoventuresllc.net/home.html maybe 5-700?
better transmission $$$
ej22 $$$$
radiator $
piping for radiator $
roll cage $200

All of this and I have not even gotten to the upgraded suspension, fancy narrowed beam, brakes, tires etc... :shock: :shock:

Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:11 pm

Having done a number of swaps as a wrench-turning hobbiest since 1979, allow me to politely say that you may be biting off a bit much in this swap project.

If I were you, I'd strongly encourage you to build a 1776 VW engine for the car, make some suspension and brake upgrade plans, go through the transmission if needed, and drive the car.

Bryan

Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:30 am

I'm seriously considering doing a turbo 4 or the 3.0 subie swap on my 58 - especially since it already sits on an IRS pan.

I was driving an '05 CTS V, so I'm looking to get back in the same power to weight ratio.

I'm figuring I'll be into the subie motor and 5 spd subie trans (with reversed ring & pinion) around $8-10k by the time the swap is all done and everything is rebuilt/sorted/installed. This will be the most expensive portion of my planned build-even with me doing most of the work.