TheSamba.com :: View topic - Help me figure out starter and flywheel situation please...

Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:16 am

The engine on my 65KG was replaced with a 1600DP from a bus. The transmission is original. I dropped the engine a few days ago. The starter said 12V but I found a 109teeth 180mm flywheel (new/low mileage looking) and clutch inside.

The starter gear appears loose on the shaft. Is that how it's supposed to be? The starter worked well before I dropped it. And, the flywheel shows no sign of damage. Started teeth look ok to me.

But, I had read that 108 teeth flywheels only worked with 6V starters. I'd seen an attempt to put a 6V starter gear on a 12V with bushings, but that particular attempt didn't seem to work.

Wondering what I have going on in my engine.

Thanks!

Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:25 pm

You have a 12 volt starter, thats what you say is stamped on the starter, which requires a 130 tooth ring gear, the 6 volt starter used 109 tooth ring gear. The small gear on the starters are different for 109 or 130 tooth ring gears.

You have a 180 mm clutch, the small one used on the low hp cars, the engine you have a 1600 DP, at least 30%, maybe 50% more power than the 40 HP motor, and thus requires the larger 200 mm clutch, else clutch life will be short, suseptable to slipping under the higher load the more powerful motor is capable of pushing.

I suggest seeing as car is 12 volts now, that you convert to the stock 1600 DP flywheel, that way you have a ring gear that fit the 12 volt starter you use, AND you get the correct diameter clutch. Pay attention to oring style verses no oring style flywheels, the later motors had the oring style. You need the correct starter bushing

Now if you have an early tranny, the bigger 130 tooth ring gear will rub the tranny case a bit, the case can be ground off in these areas inside the bell house, some folks bolt up the motor to the tranny and turn motor by hand as motor is tightened to tranny to machine the soft magnesium tranny case with the rotation gear. then remove and vacuum all the chips (dont have the clutch installed, it is a chip catcher, and cover the pilot bearing openjng with tape.) like wise this method leaves marks so you can follow up with a hand grinder, files etc.. to finish it off for enough extra clearence.

Also recheck the crank end play, it is effected when flywheel is swapped, you need to measure it and add or subtract shim height as needed to adjust.

Now another option is to run a 6 volt starter (yes it will work on 12 volts) and then you can use your existing 109 tooth flywheel ring gear, but you still have the undersize clutch, you really need the large one for this motor, To do this you source the some what rare 200 mm clutch with 109 tooth (6 volt) gear. this was stock on some 1500 cc Microbusses. This is what I have in my converted to 12 volt 61 Bug still using my old 6 volt starter with a 1973 1600 DP motor, using the 109 mm gear, 200 mm clutch Bus Flywheel. Been running that 6 volt starter on 12 volts for over 30 years. Otherwise if you stick with the tiny clutch, you need to baby the motor, dont put you foot into it climbing a hill, accelerate slowly, Vw went to the larger clutch for a good reason.

also ring gears can be changed on a flywheel, never have I had this done, but that is possible. Thus a 109 tooth, 200 mm clutch flywheel can be made.

So in sum, seeing as you need a 200 mm clutch, and your converted to 12 volt electrics...

1... Use the 130 tooth, 200 mm clutch flywheel, use 12 volt starter, clearence the tranny bell housing to clear the larger 130 tooth ring gear.

2.... Use the 109 tooth, 200 clutch flywheel (somewhat hard to find) and a 6 volt starter.

3... And last and least, run the flywheel and clutch you have (109 tooth, 180 mm clutch) and install a 6 volt starter. (ok to run on 12 volt). You just have to baby the motor becuase of the tiny clutch, kind of takes the fun out of a bigger motor, or drive it like you stole it and have more rapid clutch wear, burnt clutch lining. Yikes!

In regards to the photograph of the starter gear, yes it appears to me the gear's bore has been enlarged, if so, something is wrong, probably needs replacement. Maybe it is damage caused from using 109 tooth ring gear on the wrong type (130 tooth type) starter drive gear? or perhaps the wrong bushing? But it is a bit difficult to tell for sure from a photograph. Is that metal shavings shown?

Good Luck, Bug On, errrr ahhh, Ghia On!!!! !!!!!!! :ghia_green: :ghia_blue: :ghia_orange: :ghia_yellow: :ghia_green: :ghia_blue: :ghia_yellow: :ghia_orange:

ps For Bugs... if you have a solid, non louvered deck lid, and run the later motor with the dog house fan, which sucks more air, then you will want to prop open the solid type deck lid a half inch or so at the bottom, to allow enough air intake. I found with my motor swap, that on highway hills, pulling hard at high rpms, the engine choked out, the fan robbed air from the carb, such that power dropped off, I couldnt keep up with traffic, the fix was simple, a half inch gap at the bottom of deck lid and that same hill climb is made without choking the motor, Can go much faster, up the hill now. Before opening the deck lid, I couldnt even keep up with slow lane traffic, now can cruise in the fast lane. VW added louvers to the deck lid as motors got bigger, fan enlarged for good reason.
I dont know if Ghia deck lids needed enlarged louvers or greater louver counts as the motor progressed to larger displacement, larger fan as had happened on the Bug.

Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:12 pm

PS my neighboors mom an dad live in India, they came to visit, while their kids were at work I took them out in my 66 Bug sight seeing, they really liked the Bug alot, they told me they still see Bugs in India, Dad used to have one, but they are not seen in mass like in the old days. I was glad to hear that classic vw hobby is over there too. World wide fun these classic air cooled mechanical wonders with personality bring to mankind. Mom cooked some great Indian food for me, Yummy!

So A Big Hello to Indian VW nuts from an American VW nut!

Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:17 pm

Was that crank's dowels brazed over and new ones drilled? How flat is the brazed area? The snout needs to be flat flat so the flywheel sits firm.

Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:15 pm

Pruneman99 wrote: Was that crank's dowels brazed over and new ones drilled? How flat is the brazed area? The snout needs to be flat flat so the flywheel sits firm.

Uhm, youre correct,

Dont think I have seen that before, Is this a repair of damaged dowel holes, fill and redrill 45 degress off, or built up brazing for lack of endplay issue? Lots of braze material does it stand higher than the steel?

Best you set a gauge block over the repair brazing, and make sure they are not above the steel. But water under the bridge at this point, if it was running smooth before, it probably is ok from a balance standpoint. The mating surface on the flywheel was fine right?

good luck

Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:48 pm

12 volt ring gear pressed onto a 180mm flywheel.
The crankshaft repair is G.E.X. kinda style . . . you better drive it like a little old lady! :P

Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:43 pm

The engine is from a bus I believe. I figured the brazing was to cover up the other 4 holes of a 8 dowel crank.

I get that the 180mm is undersized for the 1600 (though I have read some members here post that they have not had issues).

The ring gear is 109 teeth -- I've counted. So, am puzzled that it works with a 12V starter (and no issues of teeth grinding etc -- ring gear looks in great condition). So, am assuming starter gear was changed somehow. How can I confirm? What was the difference in number of teeth or number dia of the starter gear?

Thanks!
Byas

PS: @bluebus - A couple of friends and i are moderators of a What'sApp group that has broght together AC VW owners from across country. We recently held a gathering in Goa with cars from Mumbai, Bangalore and elsewhere driving there. Was great. Plan to make this an annual event.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1521185641283610/

Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:38 am

This is the starter that's on the car.

It has a 9 teeth drive gear. Isn't this the right one for the 109 ring gear? Can anyone confirm?

The Bosch part number reads 0 000 311 019. It's 12V. Any idea what part this is?

VW did have 12V options in the early/mid 60s. Could it be that? Or, as a local mechanic suggested, perhaps starter was cobbled together with a 6V drive gear and base and 12V body?

Byas

Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:36 am

they all have 9 teeth gears, the diameter is different though

Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:23 am

Is there a shaft on that starter that goes into the starter bushing? Can't tell in your photo.

Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:04 am

Slow 1200 wrote: they all have 9 teeth gears, the diameter is different though

What dia should a 6V/109teeth be vs. a 130 teeth starter gear? Confirming one way or the other would help me choose whether I get a standard 200mm cluth flywheel or get a 200mm with 108 teeth (perhaps by transferring current ring gear to a 200mm flywheel).

@cussr, yes it does have a shaft.

Thanks!
Byas

Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:59 am

according to a search here the 6 volt gear is 29mm and the 12 volt one is 25mm or thereabouts

Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:26 am

Thank you!! I just measured the starter. 29mm it is. So it is a "hybrid" with 109 teeth compatible gear but with 12V.

Womder if it was originally made that way for the early year 12V options or was a hybrid created locally.

Thanks! One more puzzle solved. 999 left.

Byas

Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:05 pm

bnam wrote: This is the starter that's on the car.

It has a 9 teeth drive gear. Isn't this the right one for the 109 ring gear? Can anyone confirm?

The Bosch part number reads 0 000 311 019. It's 12V. Any idea what part this is?

VW did have 12V options in the early/mid 60s. Could it be that? Or, as a local mechanic suggested, perhaps starter was cobbled together with a 6V drive gear and base and 12V body?

The 12V starter with 6V bendix is actually another legitimate combination. I have this on our 1966 12V SO44 camper. It matches up with the 6V 180mm o-ring flywheel on the engine that takes a 200mm pressure plate. The bell housing is 6V size. The bus itself is fully original 12V from the factory.

So completely legitimate and original to my bus. I'm the third owner and I know all the history since it was purchased in Germany

Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:55 am

nlorntson wrote: bnam wrote: This is the starter that's on the car.

It has a 9 teeth drive gear. Isn't this the right one for the 109 ring gear? Can anyone confirm?

The Bosch part number reads 0 000 311 019. It's 12V. Any idea what part this is?

VW did have 12V options in the early/mid 60s. Could it be that? Or, as a local mechanic suggested, perhaps starter was cobbled together with a 6V drive gear and base and 12V body?

The 12V starter with 6V bendix is actually another legitimate combination. I have this on our 1966 12V SO44 camper. It matches up with the 6V 180mm o-ring flywheel on the engine that takes a 200mm pressure plate. The bell housing is 6V size. The bus itself is fully original 12V from the factory.

So completely legitimate and original to my bus. I'm the third owner and I know all the history since it was purchased in Germany

so you have a 109 teeth flywheel? asking because I've seen 66 VWs with 130 teeth flywheels and 6 volt starter (actually those were available all the way into the seventies in 1200 beetles but that's another story), but not 109 teeth flywheels and 12 volt starter
In any case there was a 12 volt M code for buses and police cars and the like way before 66 and they must have used a starter like we are seeing here