TheSamba.com :: View topic

Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:11 am

Last Saturday I ice raced our Manx clone for the first time. Unfortunately not having the stock fuel system was a detriment and it would not run well enough to be anywhere near competitive. Stock 1600 DP with Kadrons presently tuned for summer running.

This car would have potential on the ice but needs to go back to a centermounted Solex with the factory heated manifold and warm air inlet air cleaner - or up graded to EFI to be drivable in cold weather.

Has anyone else tried this and what was your set up?

Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:27 am

That is awesomeness on Ice!

Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:25 pm

As you noticed the biggest problem with carbs in winter racing is heat. You need a lot of it. You could try building a box around the exhaust that had an outlet that you could run a hose to the air cleaner so the carb could pull warmer air through it. The biggest problem with a buggy is the engine is so exposed, there isn't much you can do to keep it warm.

We used to have all out, balls to the wall ice racing here. A friend of mine had a 240Z with a chevy 383 stroker that he raced in the summer. It had a dual quad tunnel ram on it and it would only run for about 2 laps before everything froze solid. He went to cast iron manifold and built a preheat box off the passenger side header and it ran well after that. There was another guy that raced a 911 from Alberta but he never shut his car off it ran all the time trying to get heat in the engine. All the fast cars were injected. We would run up to 140k-150ph in the front straight on 6 bolts per foot in space saver spare tires. We used 6mm body bolts with 10mm protrusion and liquid tire sealant to keep air in them.

brad

Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:48 pm

Thanks Slalombuggy, I was not having any icing issues it is too cold for that, carb icing shows up on the top end first and progresses from there. We had good top end all day. The engine idled fine and run fine above 2500 rpm. It's the transition from idle to the main jets where it goes lean and falls flat on it's face. I have all the tin in place with a working thermostat. And yes I idled it all day but it never helped. Cold air and cold fuel makes for a lack of vaporization of the gas and gas does not burn in liquid form.

We were running rubber to ice with no studs and the off idle transition is very critical to maximize control on bare ice. It made it so we were either stalled or spinning and you can't win a race that way!

The stock Kaddy air cleaners would be hard to add preheat to but I suppose air cleaners are really not needed in ice racing so I could build something to replace them with that would take a hose coming off the exhaust.

I could also jet it pig rich in the transition too just for the event and just let the excess raw gas go right through.

Injection of course would be the ticket!

Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:20 pm

Is this timed laps, like autocross on ice, or wheel to wheel racing? Looks like great fun, sorry to hear about the tuning issues.

Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:50 am

Timed laps. We had two 944s and a Jetta entered too. This was really an entry level event aimed at young drivers. First time for the Buggy so will have to rethink the set up for next time.

I brought it for the young folks to enjoy but it was virtually undrivable.

Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:20 pm

Awesome, have fun!

Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:31 am

And THIS, is how the sickness begins.

You go try it out for "fun" while all along thinking you can be THE ONE who can quit after just one time. Then you have to go back to get that fix you start to jones for. Suddenly you look at your wallet and it is empty, but the garage is full of Ice cleats, special ducting, heated clothes, larger engine pieces, better gear sets, trick limited slip differentials, quick steering devices.

This is a gateway addiction. Once the ice melts, what do you then do to "get the fix"? Do you start taking Ice cubes and crushing them to snort in order to get by? Drag Slicks? High end Fuel Injection to main line that race fuel comes on hard to lay you back in the seat for that next hit.

You start to recognize other people on the street who have the same addiction by their sunburnt gums from smiling so wide while ice racing in the bright low angle sun.

For the Love of God man, seek help before it is too late! Find the Winter racing support group set up in the Quinzhee and tell them your story of how you got sucked in. They will offer support, like which jets to run at what temps, and the best fuel/water separators to keep the fuel from freezing.

Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:00 pm

You need to find some industrial sled tins. The REALLY close off the bottom of the engine. You could then run tubes down to both sides and get preheated air from the heads and cylinders. You would have to fabricate some sort of hat to fit over your carbs but easily done with some tin and some time. If you had dual Webers you could run CB's turbo hats. It think I have a set of industrial tins some where in the pile

brad

Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:02 pm

Maybe run some heater box outlets back up to the carbs (with hats as suggested)?

Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:54 pm

joescoolcustoms wrote: And THIS, is how the sickness begins.

You go try it out for "fun" while all along thinking you can be THE ONE who can quit after just one time. Then you have to go back to get that fix you start to jones for. Suddenly you look at your wallet and it is empty, but the garage is full of Ice cleats, special ducting, heated clothes, larger engine pieces, better gear sets, trick limited slip differentials, quick steering devices.

This is a gateway addiction. Once the ice melts, what do you then do to "get the fix"? Do you start taking Ice cubes and crushing them to snort in order to get by? Drag Slicks? High end Fuel Injection to main line that race fuel comes on hard to lay you back in the seat for that next hit.

You start to recognize other people on the street who have the same addiction by their sunburnt gums from smiling so wide while ice racing in the bright low angle sun.

For the Love of God man, seek help before it is too late! Find the Winter racing support group set up in the Quinzhee and tell them your story of how you got sucked in. They will offer support, like which jets to run at what temps, and the best fuel/water separators to keep the fuel from freezing.
:D :D :D

Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:04 pm

slalombuggy wrote: You need to find some industrial sled tins. The REALLY close off the bottom of the engine. You could then run tubes down to both sides and get preheated air from the heads and cylinders. You would have to fabricate some sort of hat to fit over your carbs but easily done with some tin and some time. If you had dual Webers you could run CB's turbo hats. It think I have a set of industrial tins some where in the pile

brad

The tins are all there now Brad. It has Kadrons so I suspect I would need to make my own hats. A couple lengths of hose and some hose clamps would tell the story.

I should just concentrate on the 944s but the lighter weight, short wheel base and quick Bug steering ratio in the Buggy is a lot more fun!

Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:39 pm

The industrial tins will close it off if you are not running heater boxes. IF you have heater boxes I would run hoses off of them. You could have one heater box open at the back by the exhaust and joint the boxes together at the flywheel end and run the hose to the air cleaner from the other box. That way it would preheat the air in the first box and heat it up even more in the second so it might actually be warm when it gets to the carb throat. For Kads you could make a T that joins them and run the heat through there

brad

Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:40 pm

Industrial tins are there in place already. No heater boxes. Very few Manx style Buggies do.

Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:14 am

How'd it go this year?

Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:09 pm

Not good!

Disappointment all around I am afraid. We had between 35 and 40 young folks of driving age committed to the event and then we got caught in what the weather people termed an "arctic vortex". Race day dawned at -29 with a forecast high of -21 with a -38 wind chill. The cars would have done just fine but it was too much to ask of the officials to stand out there and time, record results and directing traffic for 5 hours when exposed skin freezes in minutes. We postponed the event for two weeks to the first weekend in March. Surely the weather will break by then...

March 2nd the day started at -26 with a wind chill of -48 and heavy ground drifting that continued all day! On consulting all involved it turns out that the folks that own the farm will be tied up with music festivals for the next 5 weeks and cannot host the event later in the month. Looks like we struck out this year!

The first year it was so warm that we had to quit by 3 PM because there was getting to be too much water on top of the ice. Last year was good at -14 and just a stiff breeze. Today was -10 and sunny!!! Grrrr! :evil:

Well there she goes eh? Redate the trophies for next year and try again...

Maybe look at some sort of a heated shed or enclosed trailer to house the officials for next year.

Thanks for your interest!

Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:12 pm

The Buggy is running a type 4 engine now with Webers re-jetted just a bit rich on the idle. Preliminary test runs the Saturday before proved good with no bogging or stumbles at all at -15. Very good throttle response. I was SO looking forward to this event!!

Don't ya just love this global warming? :wink:

Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:49 am

Thats too bad the weather didn't cooperate this year. Would have loved to see some new photos! It looks like such a hoot though. Did you do anything to the type 4 to contain the heat?

Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:52 pm

All the tins, flaps and thermostat are in place and adjusted properly, chokes operational, and I went up 2 sizes on idle jets. I took it for about a 20 minute rip around town and a mile down the highway and back. It ran well with no hesitation at all. Oil temp got to 160*. That was at about -15* so not real cold.

Sat Feb 29, 2020 11:30 am

Ready for this year?