TheSamba.com :: View topic - Forest Find 1961 Mouse Grey 11-Window Standard

Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:53 am

Eric&Barb wrote: "1" is not going to work, as is the "2" setting looks a bit cold. You do not want welds to be popping loose later.

Thanks for the feedback. I can see how the welds look a little tall.

Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:48 am

You gotta get ALL that old metal clean. See in the corner on the left where you burned through? When you have to burn through the oxide layer before you get to clean metal...you create more heat. Your other welds look pretty decent. Practice making all of your welds the same size. See how some are small, and some are large? Count in your head when you pull the trigger when you find a good one...try to repeat that.
It's not too late to clean off that rust...has to be clean!! I even wipe down with thinner and a lint free towel or rag to get really nice welds. Keep going!!! The patch size and gap fitment looks really good!

Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:13 pm

motofly196 wrote: It's not too late to clean off that rust...has to be clean!! I even wipe down with thinner and a lint free towel or rag to get really nice welds. Keep going!!! The patch size and gap fitment looks really good!
Thanks for the tips and encouragement.

Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:19 am

Looks like you're making some good headway. I was in the same boat as you about 6 months ago not having done any sheet metal welding. A lot of the tips given here are really good advice. I found the hardest thing for me to get past was the fear of screwing something up on the Bus. Once you get past that, it becomes more fun and the challenge of "how am I going to fix this" than "CAN I actually fix this."

Some advice I can offer is to stop by harbor freight and buy a 1/2" power file. Its now just about the only tool I use to dress welds, and it is great for removing rust and grinding in small spaces. Their sanding belts are not good, so I got some 60 grit belts from Amazon that were much better.

What I like to do on areas that matter (i.e., a repair on the outer skin vs a repair on the floor or undercarriage), is to go around once doing a round of spot welds, then grind them down allowing the metal to cool. Rinse and repeat. The power file does not get the metal nearly as hot as a 10k rpm grinder will.

Keep on truckin!

Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:02 pm

Try pin-hole haiku
Works as good as anything
Except maybe weld

Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:10 pm

Besides NO wind,
And having clean clean clean metal,
Another big thing is controlling the heat generated.

Especially on sheet-metal panels...!

Than you see someone weld in like a long-side panel,
Or any other wide/flat section,
Heat is enemy #1(!)

Weld a tack, one tack, then cool it with a puff of compressed air.

Some might use a wet rag, but that will even sometimes cause warping/shrinkage.

One tack, cool. Another tack, cool.
Might seem ridiculous, but you're not welding pipe, dig?

Also,
heat is generated by grinding.
I use the side edge of a cut-off wheel in an angle grinder.

Some make an arbor for their die-grinder to hold a thin cut-off wheel, to also be used on edge.

it is very very important to first flatten your weld blob and NOT the surrounding metal.
Those roloc and other flap-wheels are good to smooth only after you have the weld flattened out first.
And, again, control the heat from grinding like you do when welding.
Especially since you'll get it hot when grinding, then that will cause warpage, and then you'll be taking down the adjacent metal even more because it's not flat...

If that makes any sense...

Right now, you might be concentrating so much on welds and pin-holes that you will warp the panels.

When you get to body work, you'll be all AAIIIRRRGH!! because everything is all warped out.

Taking time to cool welds is far, far easier than slap-file/spoon/shrinker/hammer/dolly or, god forbid, mud later on down the road...

Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:35 pm

Another thing I've seen pros do,
Is when welding in a patch.

One tack, then helmet off, cool it, and adjust fit.
get it level, or at least verify, then another tack on the opposite side.
At this point more cooling, and adjusting of fit, for flush, and also to verify that the hole being patched isn't growing or shrinking.

They might get taken right back out, and gaps adjusted.. then another try.
on curved panels, the heat will pull them in, gaps will close, pulling the curve 'inward'.
or just the opposite sometimes, too.

The first couple of tacks can be the most important.
Get the fit of the patch in the hole right, then move on to more tacks only when everything is flush and the end-to-end measurements are right at the gap edge.

Man, i made a LOT of these mistakes when i first started a couple of years ago...!

Here's when i get lucky chasing pin-holes.. Nice flat/shiny.

Here's when i don't! :evil:

Here's a section from one of my builds where i vandalized a door and some fenders.
Did OK at first, then got tired and in a hurry (and maybe a little drunk :oops: ) and just warped the TAR out of stuff..!

Don't be like me..

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...start=1440

Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:45 pm

advCo wrote: Some advice I can offer is to stop by harbor freight and buy a 1/2" power file. Thanks for the encouragement and advice. I definitely need to grind welds with something smaller than the 4.5" angle grinder.

Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:47 pm

Clatter wrote: Don't be like me... Thanks for the haiku, good advice, and helpful link.

Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:21 pm

I find that using a cut off wheel perpendicular to the weld to "take down" the bead is really effective however there is little room for error once you get it down level with the panel itself. I learned a trick from an old school guy and that is to double up cutting discs when using it like that. There is more surface area and the wheel wants to act less like a cutting wheel and more like a grinding wheel, you get a lot more control of how fast its taking metal away.

Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:49 pm

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=548717

Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:57 pm

I'm patching some holes where the floor meets the front of the bus, under the driver's side headlight bucket. With the floor removed, this is what I started with: Here's where I'm at now, having cut out some rust and patched some holes: I've been working around the wires for the high beam switch, tucking them in when welding in that area. Right now I'm about to put in a patch to the left of them, after which it will be tough to move them in and out of the hole. Ideally, I'd have all the wiring out from behind here, especially if I plan to spray some rust inhibitor back there, but I can imagine it will be really tough to route everything back. Any wiring advice from those who've done this before?

Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:33 pm

Just tie some bailing wire around the connectors, pull the wires out of the way and the bailing wire will follow through the hole. When you are done welding, just pull on the bailing wire to fish the hi/lo beam switch wires back into place. Hope that makes sense?
Your welds are looking better! Nice to weld on some thicker metal I bet.

Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:12 am

motofly196 wrote: Just tie some bailing wire around the connectors, pull the wires out of the way and the bailing wire will follow through the hole. When you are done welding, just pull on the bailing wire to fish the hi/lo beam switch wires back into place. Hope that makes sense?
That makes perfect sense, thanks (and baling wire is a good idea). I was doing that with some twine until I got a little too close to the twine with the angle grinder. What do you think about spraying some rust inhibitor behind the repaired steel? How would you deal with wiring when doing that?

motofly196 wrote: Your welds are looking better! Nice to weld on some thicker metal I bet.
Thanks for the encouragement.

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:18 am

I would pull the wire out off the way or remove the wire while you are working in the area. Using wire or a spare cable is a good idea to tie to your existing wiring and pull it back into place. For rust preventative, It might be better to use a brush rather than spray if its hard to get the right angle on the back of the metal.

If you do remove the wire completely, use something that bends but has some rigidity like the bailing wire or a clutch cable as a guide when you re-install the wiring.

I'm in the same boat with you, learning to weld as I go. Ive made a lot of mistakes, but started with hidden areas. It helped to just jump in and start welding.

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:36 am

Longmont1302 wrote: I'm patching some holes where the floor meets the front of the bus, under the driver's side headlight bucket. With the floor removed, this is what I started with: Here's where I'm at now, having cut out some rust and patched some holes:

I've got to do a similar patch on my bus - how are you tackling the double layer of the A-post over the top of it?

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:51 pm

dschup wrote: I would pull the wire out off the way or remove the wire while you are working in the area. Using wire or a spare cable is a good idea to tie to your existing wiring and pull it back into place. For rust preventative, It might be better to use a brush rather than spray if its hard to get the right angle on the back of the metal.

If you do remove the wire completely, use something that bends but has some rigidity like the bailing wire or a clutch cable as a guide when you re-install the wiring.
I think you're right, moving the wires and brushing around them sounds like a good plan. I would love to see a video of someone replacing the entire wiring harness on a bus. It's intimidating to imagine snaking stuff through all those tiny spots.

dschup wrote: I'm in the same boat with you, learning to weld as I go. Ive made a lot of mistakes, but started with hidden areas.
I just read your whole bus thread and enjoyed the trip. You're a lot closer to driving your bus than I am - keep up the good work. I got a kick out of seeing your well-utilized garage, too - it looks a lot like ours, which is packed with four people's bicycles (why are there more than four?), the bus, and our 1971 Super Beetle. My wife dreams of a better world where she can park her daily driver in a garage on a snowy night. She's a good sport.

dschup wrote: It helped to just jump in and start welding.
Amen to that. Well done.

Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:56 pm

Longmont1302 wrote: My wife dreams of a better world where she can park her daily driver in a garage on a snowy night.

We are brothers. :lol:

Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:22 pm

Mr Margaret Scratcher wrote: I've got to do a similar patch on my bus - how are you tackling the double layer of the A-post over the top of it?
Honestly, I've been putting that off by endlessly messing with these little patches, but I'm slowly making my way left to where I'll have to deal with the A-pillar. When I visited my dad in Florida last November, I bought the lower A-pillar pieces and the lower dogleg from the man himself and brought them home in my suitcase. I suspect I'll have to remove some of the top layer of the old A-pillar, even if it's in okay shape, to properly patch the underlying steel, and then replace what I cut out. I think the short answer is that I'm still trying to figure that out, too. Good luck to you -- if I come up with any helpful solutions, I'll be sure to share them.

Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:45 am

Longmont1302 wrote: I suspect I'll have to remove some of the top layer of the old A-pillar, even if it's in okay shape, to properly patch the underlying steel, and then replace what I cut out. I think the short answer is that I'm still trying to figure that out, too. Good luck to you -- if I come up with any helpful solutions, I'll be sure to share them.

Here's my list of options so far:

Either

1: patch in place:
Pros: Easy

Cons: How do I do the drivers side where the hole is under the A Post?

or

2: Cut A post higher up so I can remove and repair both separately, maybe doing the lower repair first to keep everything lined up

Pros:
Can fix both bits properly

Cons:
a lot more spot weld removing
SCARY

3: Cut front panel high enough to remove the panel

Pros:
No extra cuts on good panels (I need to replace part of my front panel anyway)

Cons: Higher front panel is more expensive
Less original metal/paint, unless you weld the cut off part back on, and then use a short lower repair section, but you'll still have a seam to take care of across the OG paint, plus I'm worried enough about welding once across such a big panel, let alone twice.