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Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:52 am

I have three end play shims that I measure as .35mm, .35mm and .33mm. With all three in and the flywheel torqued down to 253 ft-lb I still get .20mm end play. Since the end play range is .07mm to .14mm the end play is a little too much. I figure I could use two .40mm shims instead of the two .35mm shims but I have not been able to find any .40mm shims on-line except in the UK.

Now my question. Where can I get .40mm shims in the US? And is that much shimming unusual? The total would be 1.13mm. Also the surface the shims (bearing?) are against is tilted. One side is depressed a little. Is that normal? If not, is there any way to level it? Any help would be appreciated.

Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:22 pm

Those are big numbers. The main bearing the shims are riding against is probably loose in the case.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xAAV6Z0a_TA

Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:43 pm

The thrust surface on the bearing is part of the bearing so it would be impossible to have it tilt enough for you to measure it. Better look again at what you are measuring from - to. If you suspect the thrust bearing is hosed, lay a straight edge against the end of the crankshaft and measure from that. If the flywheel is not laying flat, the o-ring may not have seated properly when you replaced it.

Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:20 pm

Yikes! Thanks for suggesting the video. I looked at it and several others and I agree with your assessment. What are my options? Can I run it like that or should I go for a rebuild. I don't think I'm up to doing it myself. It would depend on a lot of things, cost being a big one.

Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:29 pm

Altering endplay on a used engine will do catastrophic damage to bottom end.
If the end play on a used engine is out of spec it’s time for new crank bearings.

Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:48 pm

Buy a 10 pack of assorted shims I think .36mm is the thickest. One way to check that the #1 Main thrust bearing still fits the case tight is to do a little test, add an extra shim 4 shims total and tighten the gland nut just enough to lock the engine up then see if there is any play. The real question is how well the case holds all the main bearings. What happens is when end-play becomes excessive other things have also happened that require an align bore of the case to remedy. If it turns out there is still play you could probably just run it the way you had it with the 3 shims until the crankshaft breaks on you which may be up to 20000 miles more. But that will likely also destroy the case too but the case, if it's been rebuilt and align bored before, may already not be usable. Depends on the thickness of the case journal at the #1 Main Bearing. Stock is 22mm, 1st cut is 21mm, the 2nd cut is 20mm and less than 20mm the case is not usable.

Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:58 pm

good time to mention - never ride the clutch. When at a light put it in neutral and take foot off clutch. Same in traffic. As a mechanic back in the 1970's made a pretty good living rebuilding engines and trans where the owner either held their foot on the clutch (killed the thrust bearing) or rested their hands on the shifter in high gear going down the highway (killed the 4th or 5th synchro hub) and fork.

Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:45 pm

If you don't have shims to lock the bearing in place.
Remove the flywheel and shims. Push the crankshaft toward the fan belt. Use a wood dowel and hammer and tap the bearing toward the fan belt, note any movement. Now push the crank toward the flywheel, note any movement.
If there is any movement at all, the engine needs to come apart for further inspection.

Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:33 pm

Spezialist wrote: Altering endplay on a used engine will do catastrophic damage to bottom end.
If the end play on a used engine is out of spec it’s time for new crank bearings.

^^^^^ This ^^^^^

If the engine isn't puking oil out the rear main seal or otherwise beating itself to death, just run it with the original shim pack while you save up to do a rebuilt. By trying to reshim an old worn engine, you may well lock the thrust bearing to the crank and destroy both the case and the crank in very short order.

Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:28 pm

After close examination in better light, the main baring seems flat, not tilted as I reported before but I still have a lot of end play, at least 1mm. With the flywheel off and the shims out I pushed and pulled and verified that my original measurement of 1.13mm is very close but I still have 0.20mm. Should I try to close that up a little more or leave it as it is?

Here is a little more background information. I originally took the engine out because the gas tank was leaking and the gas sensor wasn't working. Those problems are now fixed. So, the engine had been leaking quit a bit of oil so I decided to replace the main seal. That is why I took the flywheel off. I think it had been over-torqued because it was very difficult to get the bolt off. Two of the shims I took out were damaged. One wasn't flat (curved from inside to outside) and the other was turned up on the outside edge. I didn't think I could use them again so decided to get the end play within specs which is 0.07 to 0.14. I am now at 0.20 which is 0.06 greater than the max. If I got three 0.36mm shims I would close the gap another 0.05mm or just 0.01mm too much end play. What do you think? Should i get three new 0.36mm shims or leave it as it is?

Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:35 pm

FloridaRunner wrote: After close examination in better light, the main baring seems flat, not tilted as I reported before but I still have a lot of end play, at least 1mm. With the flywheel off and the shims out I pushed and pulled and verified that my original measurement of 1.13mm is very close but I still have 0.20mm. Should I try to close that up a little more or leave it as it is?

Here is a little more background information. I originally took the engine out because the gas tank was leaking and the gas sensor wasn't working. Those problems are now fixed. So, the engine had been leaking quit a bit of oil so I decided to replace the main seal. That is why I took the flywheel off. I think it had been over-torqued because it was very difficult to get the bolt off. Two of the shims I took out were damaged. One wasn't flat (curved from inside to outside) and the other was turned up on the outside edge. I didn't think I could use them again so decided to get the end play within specs which is 0.07 to 0.14. I am now at 0.20 which is 0.06 greater than the max. If I got three 0.36mm shims I would close the gap another 0.05mm or just 0.01mm too much end play. What do you think? Should i get three new 0.36mm shims or leave it as it is?

https://www.csp-shop.com/en/engine/shims-end-play-type-4-105-291-021-10936a.html

You can still get 0.38 shims. I think mine is running two 38's and 1 36 currently. I can't say if you should, I didn't know it would be bad to put a used motor into the correct range (?) - but if you want to, the shims are available if you hunt for them.

Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:48 pm

Replace the .0129" with .0149" (.33mm with .38 mm) and check it again. If it is still high use a .38 instead of one of the ,35 also. It the thrust bearing isn't moving I see no issue here. Check it again next time the engine is out. Hope you are using a dial indicator with magnetic base and not feeler gauges.

Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:02 pm

You have to check that the bearing isn't moving. You can do this by adding an extra shim thick enough that it guarantees that there is no endplay between the crank and the bearing. If with the flywheel torqued up lightly you still have any endplay, that endplay is between the bearing and the case and can not be corrected for.

Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:17 pm

The journal hole shouldn’t be covered with a walking bearing is what they’re telling you. How many licks to get to the center of a lolly pop is what your asking.
That hole is about 5mm small. Every thousandth over spec is walking over that hole and blocking oil pressures and flow. I’ve seen busses driving down the road with 1/4 inch endplay, surviving with hope luck and love.

Number 4 rod dies first, since the momentum keeps the crank from seizing mostly. :lol:

Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:01 am

I'm thinking a rebuild may be my best option. I checked my thrust bearing this morning using a stick of wood and a rubber mallet, I put the stick on the thrust bearing and tapped it all the way around. It didn't move. Next I used a pencil to draw a line starting on the case and ending on the crank. I then rotated the crank using the pulley. I expected that the line on the crank would move to one side and the line on the case and the bearing would stay lined up. They didn't. They were about 1/4" apart. I'm guessing the hole in the bearing for the peg has elongated probably at an angle thus increasing the end play significantly. Does that seem logical?

In any case I think the 1.20mm end play is symptomatic of a bigger problem and adding thicker shims will only hide the problem for a while. Since doing a rebuild is beyond what I feel comfortable doing I'm wondering about having it done locally (Sarasota/Bradenton, Florida) or getting a rebuilt one shipped to me. Here for example: http://www.gex.com/beetle-engine.htm ($1299 + shipping + (core shipping) = $1700) Does that sound reasonable or is there someplace else. If I get it done in Florida I have to pay 7% sales tax too. Suggestions would be appreciated.

Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:05 am

Quote: Here for example: http://www.gex.com/beetle-engine.htm ($1299 + shipping + (core shipping) = $1700) Does that sound reasonable or is there someplace else. If I get it done in Florida I have to pay 7% sales tax too. Suggestions would be appreciated.

brace yourself.....

Be kind, Sambanistas....

Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:05 am

prepare yourself for a junk case. That said you might be able to drill the case dowel hole and put in a slightly oversize dowel. You can make one from the end of a drill bit.

Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:38 am

There no shortage of “long blocks” in the classifieds. Find the best deal, with the best feedback you can. XEG SKCUS!

Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:56 am

A lot depends on what you want from your engine. If you want a daily driver you can put 25K miles on a year you need to save up the dough and get a really first class engine. However if you are only going to be driving 1000 miles a year you may not want spend very much and you may be able to get by with lesser quality work.

I have had my T-181, Thing for 8 years at this point in time, it has ~ 0.100" of end play, but I seldom take it far from home and only put maybe 3000 miles a year on it. I am not all that concerned about the thrust bearing moving around in the case, though I know that someday it may let me down.

I am hoping that some day I will feel rich enough to have Rocky Jennings do the machine work for me that I can build an Oxyboxer motor that will last me for decades in daily use.

Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:59 am

The thing is with the flywheel off you can't tell what is going on with it unless your pretty expert at this. With the flywheel off the crank is free to move a lot.
Replace the bad shims for sure. It's trial and error thing with getting the end play set different that is was. Best to just do the math and install the right shims and then tighten the flywheel not too tight and check the end play.
We usually speak about it in terms of thousandths of an inch .004" is spec. The problem to watch for is that it may only have .001" which is too tight and .003" of bearings movement. If it's bad chances are the right shims the math calls for will lock it up. Double check it after torquing the flywheel.
A torque multiplier tool is the easiest way to torque or remove a flywheel. A VW flywheel torques to about 250 lbs but with the multiplier tool you can do that with something like 27 ft/lbs and a 7/16" socket.