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Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:21 am

so just found a puddle of fuel under the front of the panelvan today and after looking under ther found the fuel line dripping between where it comes out of the tank and goes to the hard line through the body.
there is a bit of a curve in it to get there and thats where the leak was.

here are a couple of pics showing the offending item after the cloth covering was removed

and then a new piece thats never had fuel in it compared to the used bit.

this fuel line was replaced when the car was restored 2 and a half years ago.
the markings on it are cohline 2122 5.5 x 10.5 73379

have also just read some horror stories about this particular fuel line on a porsche 911 site.
someone said its that crappy they wouldnt even use it for windscreen washer hose.

http://www.early911sregistry.org/forums/showthread.php?125074-Cohline-Fuel-Hose-Issues

anyone here had similar issues ????????

Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:24 am

Oh yeah forgot to ask what is everyone using for their fuel lines ?????
and is there something in the woven grey cloth type of fuel line like original ???
all help welcomed

Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:49 am

We have the same problem here in Sweden that the life time of new fuel hoses is very short.

Many people think that the Gates brand is the only good one. I have it on my car with good results. I still change the hoses near the engine every 5 years.

The braided hoses look good, but I would never use them as you can not see the condition of the rubber.

Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:06 am

What ever your auto parts store has that fits. Here we have ethanol in the fuel so replace them every couple of years.

Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:30 am

When I redid all the lines on my porsche I just went to a hydraulic hose shop and told them to replace the lines with the fuel lines they had. I think you will find a better selection/higher grade lines at a hose shop versus a parts store.

If memory severs me correctly modern hoses should be able to withstand E15 fuels. If you look for them you can get E85 rated hoses as well. I don't know if Australia uses ethanol.

Lastly, careful of tight bends. If it's a tight 90 under there you can always do a loose 270.

Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:25 am

A lot of us carb guys are using 30R7 hose with the most current date. That's what I'm using.

But you can always step up to FI hose in the same size. The thought behind going to the FI hose being it's more compatible with today's fuels, and since it has a higher burst pressure, doesn't need to be changed as often.

Russ showed us years ago to NOT use the external braided stuff, as it would burst at 60 psi in an FI application. But the bigger problem was that it would crack and leak without being seen until you saw the fuel on the engine or floor, or saw a wet spot on the outer braid.

Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:29 am

8mm or 5/16" rubber hose w/reinforcing threads in it.

Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:45 am

Mike Fisher wrote: 8mm or 5/16" rubber hose w/reinforcing threads in it.

That is unless you have carbs. Then you'll want 1/4 inch or 6mm hose. :wink:

Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:50 pm

Modern fuel is harsh on hoses. I stopped using cloth wrapped stuff on my carbed cars when after 1 season I could squeeze the hose and see fuel seep through it.

Bell metric has a good selection of Flennor hose for all your needs (even have a 6mm cloth wrapped version if you want the old look)

https://www.belmetric.com/multifuel-hoseethanol-approved-c-14_662/?zenid=a24rdsle00bg3rd6j32tap05p6

throw the old cloth wrapped stuff out

-Lucas

Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:08 pm

Bobnotch wrote: A lot of us carb guys are using 30R7 hose with the most current date. That's what I'm using.

But you can always step up to FI hose in the same size. The thought behind going to the FI hose being it's more compatible with today's fuels, and since it has a higher burst pressure, doesn't need to be changed as often.

Russ showed us years ago to NOT use the external braided stuff, as it would burst at 60 psi in an FI application. But the bigger problem was that it would crack and leak without being seen until you saw the fuel on the engine or floor, or saw a wet spot on the outer braid.

You would think...but sadly...no. The fuel injection hoses have been having nothing but problems.

The current Gates barricade SAE J30R14T2 spec hose is about as good as readily available fuel line gets...and still I am reading about sporadic cracking and failures under normal pressures in the 2 year and less range. So its not perfect.

https://ww2.gates.com/europe/brochure.cfm?brochure=12647&location_id=19079

To be honest...I typically had replace hoses in the every 2.5-3.0 years range even un the 90's....but I would do that because my VW was a daily driver that went an average of 1500 miles per week 52 weeks of the year working in a high heat region.

I replaced it when I felt it getting noticeably stiffer...and/or when I noted cracking exposed edges near clamped ends. So I was overly proactive....the thought being that any given week I could be 1000 miles from home and did not need to wait to change hoses...until I ground to a halt with an empty fuel tank in teh middle of nowhere.

I do not consider it the correct time to replace fuel hoses only AFTER they crack to shit and leak fuel. The correct time comes long before they fail.

But its much different now......back then when I replaced lines they were not rock hard and cracking/leaking at 2 years when I replaced them....like some of what is going on now. Now...you can put brand new fuel injection rated lines on...and a year+ later...its rock hard and cracking on the outside.

All I used back through the early 2000's was Wurth stock cotton braided fuel hose and sometimes Continental.

This fuel line issue is the prime reason the vast majority of vehicles have gone to 95% nylon and steel with rubber only at flex joints. When I finally get mine on the road again I am going that route.
Ray

Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:25 pm

I use the Gates Barricade now, too, and it holds up well. A slight tightening about 3 months after installing is all I've had to do. I replaced it all after about five years, when I rebuilt the motor. It's coming up on three years, about time to do it again (ugh!).

Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:52 pm

Received this fuel line hose from J. Adney when I replaced my fuel pump about 4 years ago, I'm always doing a visual outer check and recently checked the inside to see for chalking (swab test), it's holding up great, no issues present.

Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:08 am

found out my local auto spares store has access to order from Codan.
https://www2.codan.com/industrial_hose/grid/316

one of these should be suitable i hope

Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:03 am

raygreenwood wrote: Bobnotch wrote: A lot of us carb guys are using 30R7 hose with the most current date. That's what I'm using.

But you can always step up to FI hose in the same size. The thought behind going to the FI hose being it's more compatible with today's fuels, and since it has a higher burst pressure, doesn't need to be changed as often.

Russ showed us years ago to NOT use the external braided stuff, as it would burst at 60 psi in an FI application. But the bigger problem was that it would crack and leak without being seen until you saw the fuel on the engine or floor, or saw a wet spot on the outer braid.

You would think...but sadly...no. The fuel injection hoses have been having nothing but problems.

The current Gates barricade SAE J30R14T2 spec hose is about as good as readily available fuel line gets...and still I am reading about sporadic cracking and failures under normal pressures in the 2 year and less range. So its not perfect.

https://ww2.gates.com/europe/brochure.cfm?brochure=12647&location_id=19079

To be honest...I typically had replace hoses in the every 2.5-3.0 years range even un the 90's....but I would do that because my VW was a daily driver that went an average of 1500 miles per week 52 weeks of the year working in a high heat region.

I replaced it when I felt it getting noticeably stiffer...and/or when I noted cracking exposed edges near clamped ends. So I was overly proactive....the thought being that any given week I could be 1000 miles from home and did not need to wait to change hoses...until I ground to a halt with an empty fuel tank in teh middle of nowhere.

I do not consider it the correct time to replace fuel hoses only AFTER they crack to shit and leak fuel. The correct time comes long before they fail.

But its much different now......back then when I replaced lines they were not rock hard and cracking/leaking at 2 years when I replaced them....like some of what is going on now. Now...you can put brand new fuel injection rated lines on...and a year+ later...its rock hard and cracking on the outside.

All I used back through the early 2000's was Wurth stock cotton braided fuel hose and sometimes Continental.

This fuel line issue is the prime reason the vast majority of vehicles have gone to 95% nylon and steel with rubber only at flex joints. When I finally get mine on the road again I am going that route.
Ray

Yup, when I lived in the TexOhma area, fuel hoses got changed fairly often due to getting hard as a stone. But it seemed like they took years to crack, unless they were under the hood (water cooled stuff). The funny thing was hoses under the car (by the rear mounted fuel tank) were always supple, and lasted for years. So, was it the quality of the hose? Or was it being out of the sun? Or was it a case of having fuel sit inside it?

Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:36 pm

Bobnotch wrote: raygreenwood wrote: Bobnotch wrote: A lot of us carb guys are using 30R7 hose with the most current date. That's what I'm using.

But you can always step up to FI hose in the same size. The thought behind going to the FI hose being it's more compatible with today's fuels, and since it has a higher burst pressure, doesn't need to be changed as often.

Russ showed us years ago to NOT use the external braided stuff, as it would burst at 60 psi in an FI application. But the bigger problem was that it would crack and leak without being seen until you saw the fuel on the engine or floor, or saw a wet spot on the outer braid.

You would think...but sadly...no. The fuel injection hoses have been having nothing but problems.

The current Gates barricade SAE J30R14T2 spec hose is about as good as readily available fuel line gets...and still I am reading about sporadic cracking and failures under normal pressures in the 2 year and less range. So its not perfect.

https://ww2.gates.com/europe/brochure.cfm?brochure=12647&location_id=19079

To be honest...I typically had replace hoses in the every 2.5-3.0 years range even un the 90's....but I would do that because my VW was a daily driver that went an average of 1500 miles per week 52 weeks of the year working in a high heat region.

I replaced it when I felt it getting noticeably stiffer...and/or when I noted cracking exposed edges near clamped ends. So I was overly proactive....the thought being that any given week I could be 1000 miles from home and did not need to wait to change hoses...until I ground to a halt with an empty fuel tank in teh middle of nowhere.

I do not consider it the correct time to replace fuel hoses only AFTER they crack to shit and leak fuel. The correct time comes long before they fail.

But its much different now......back then when I replaced lines they were not rock hard and cracking/leaking at 2 years when I replaced them....like some of what is going on now. Now...you can put brand new fuel injection rated lines on...and a year+ later...its rock hard and cracking on the outside.

All I used back through the early 2000's was Wurth stock cotton braided fuel hose and sometimes Continental.

This fuel line issue is the prime reason the vast majority of vehicles have gone to 95% nylon and steel with rubber only at flex joints. When I finally get mine on the road again I am going that route.
Ray

Yup, when I lived in the TexOhma area, fuel hoses got changed fairly often due to getting hard as a stone. But it seemed like they took years to crack, unless they were under the hood (water cooled stuff). The funny thing was hoses under the car (by the rear mounted fuel tank) were always supple, and lasted for years. So, was it the quality of the hose? Or was it being out of the sun? Or was it a case of having fuel sit inside it?

Its the heat. The lines inside of the engine compartment of water cooled cars take a lot of radiant engine heat.

It was the same problem on my 411 and 412's in Texas and Oklahoma heat. The engine compartment on a type 4 is fully sealed. Ambient temps can be in the 185 to 225 F range under the hood during extended highway driving in 100 F weather.

The fuel lines inside the engine compartment were always the ones I noticed getting stiff and cracking. I had to replace them every two years. Anything forward of the fire wall could stay supple for a couple more years but usually if I was buying fuel line to do the engine compartment...I would buy the whole cars worth as it was cheaper in larger quantities where I was buying it.

That...and if I was pressed for time....or pressed fro funds...it was plenty safe to redo the engine compartment lines and wait a month to do everything up to the tank. Ray

Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:33 am

raygreenwood wrote: Bobnotch wrote: raygreenwood wrote: Bobnotch wrote: A lot of us carb guys are using 30R7 hose with the most current date. That's what I'm using.

But you can always step up to FI hose in the same size. The thought behind going to the FI hose being it's more compatible with today's fuels, and since it has a higher burst pressure, doesn't need to be changed as often.

Russ showed us years ago to NOT use the external braided stuff, as it would burst at 60 psi in an FI application. But the bigger problem was that it would crack and leak without being seen until you saw the fuel on the engine or floor, or saw a wet spot on the outer braid.

You would think...but sadly...no. The fuel injection hoses have been having nothing but problems.

The current Gates barricade SAE J30R14T2 spec hose is about as good as readily available fuel line gets...and still I am reading about sporadic cracking and failures under normal pressures in the 2 year and less range. So its not perfect.

https://ww2.gates.com/europe/brochure.cfm?brochure=12647&location_id=19079

To be honest...I typically had replace hoses in the every 2.5-3.0 years range even un the 90's....but I would do that because my VW was a daily driver that went an average of 1500 miles per week 52 weeks of the year working in a high heat region.

I replaced it when I felt it getting noticeably stiffer...and/or when I noted cracking exposed edges near clamped ends. So I was overly proactive....the thought being that any given week I could be 1000 miles from home and did not need to wait to change hoses...until I ground to a halt with an empty fuel tank in teh middle of nowhere.

I do not consider it the correct time to replace fuel hoses only AFTER they crack to shit and leak fuel. The correct time comes long before they fail.

But its much different now......back then when I replaced lines they were not rock hard and cracking/leaking at 2 years when I replaced them....like some of what is going on now. Now...you can put brand new fuel injection rated lines on...and a year+ later...its rock hard and cracking on the outside.

All I used back through the early 2000's was Wurth stock cotton braided fuel hose and sometimes Continental.

This fuel line issue is the prime reason the vast majority of vehicles have gone to 95% nylon and steel with rubber only at flex joints. When I finally get mine on the road again I am going that route.
Ray

Yup, when I lived in the TexOhma area, fuel hoses got changed fairly often due to getting hard as a stone. But it seemed like they took years to crack, unless they were under the hood (water cooled stuff). The funny thing was hoses under the car (by the rear mounted fuel tank) were always supple, and lasted for years. So, was it the quality of the hose? Or was it being out of the sun? Or was it a case of having fuel sit inside it?

Its the heat. The lines inside of the engine compartment of water cooled cars take a lot of radiant engine heat.

It was the same problem on my 411 and 412's in Texas and Oklahoma heat. The engine compartment on a type 4 is fully sealed. Ambient temps can be in the 185 to 225 F range under the hood during extended highway driving in 100 F weather.

The fuel lines inside the engine compartment were always the ones I noticed getting stiff and cracking. I had to replace them every two years. Anything forward of the fire wall could stay supple for a couple more years but usually if I was buying fuel line to do the engine compartment...I would buy the whole cars worth as it was cheaper in larger quantities where I was buying it.

That...and if I was pressed for time....or pressed fro funds...it was plenty safe to redo the engine compartment lines and wait a month to do everything up to the tank. Ray

Oh, I know about the heat in that area. 100 straight days of 100+ degree heat really took it out of you without AC. This is the Burkburnett area (between Wichita Falls and Lawton).
But I still wonder if it was in some part the quality of the rubber. Just asking, as some of the older made stuff still looks good (under a car/truck) while the newer stuff is already degrading. Another example is what did GM do differently on their FI hoses, that have screw on ends to/at metal line fittings? I'm just asking, as my 30 year old Chevy truck has them, and they don't leak or aren't cracked. Same applies to the lines and hoses at the fuel tank. Was it better rubber? Different compounds? Or what? A year later GM went to braided stainless hoses to replace the rubber ones.

Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:50 am

Bobnotch wrote: raygreenwood wrote: Bobnotch wrote: raygreenwood wrote: Bobnotch wrote: A lot of us carb guys are using 30R7 hose with the most current date. That's what I'm using.

But you can always step up to FI hose in the same size. The thought behind going to the FI hose being it's more compatible with today's fuels, and since it has a higher burst pressure, doesn't need to be changed as often.

Russ showed us years ago to NOT use the external braided stuff, as it would burst at 60 psi in an FI application. But the bigger problem was that it would crack and leak without being seen until you saw the fuel on the engine or floor, or saw a wet spot on the outer braid.

You would think...but sadly...no. The fuel injection hoses have been having nothing but problems.

The current Gates barricade SAE J30R14T2 spec hose is about as good as readily available fuel line gets...and still I am reading about sporadic cracking and failures under normal pressures in the 2 year and less range. So its not perfect.

https://ww2.gates.com/europe/brochure.cfm?brochure=12647&location_id=19079

To be honest...I typically had replace hoses in the every 2.5-3.0 years range even un the 90's....but I would do that because my VW was a daily driver that went an average of 1500 miles per week 52 weeks of the year working in a high heat region.

I replaced it when I felt it getting noticeably stiffer...and/or when I noted cracking exposed edges near clamped ends. So I was overly proactive....the thought being that any given week I could be 1000 miles from home and did not need to wait to change hoses...until I ground to a halt with an empty fuel tank in teh middle of nowhere.

I do not consider it the correct time to replace fuel hoses only AFTER they crack to shit and leak fuel. The correct time comes long before they fail.

But its much different now......back then when I replaced lines they were not rock hard and cracking/leaking at 2 years when I replaced them....like some of what is going on now. Now...you can put brand new fuel injection rated lines on...and a year+ later...its rock hard and cracking on the outside.

All I used back through the early 2000's was Wurth stock cotton braided fuel hose and sometimes Continental.

This fuel line issue is the prime reason the vast majority of vehicles have gone to 95% nylon and steel with rubber only at flex joints. When I finally get mine on the road again I am going that route.
Ray

Yup, when I lived in the TexOhma area, fuel hoses got changed fairly often due to getting hard as a stone. But it seemed like they took years to crack, unless they were under the hood (water cooled stuff). The funny thing was hoses under the car (by the rear mounted fuel tank) were always supple, and lasted for years. So, was it the quality of the hose? Or was it being out of the sun? Or was it a case of having fuel sit inside it?

Its the heat. The lines inside of the engine compartment of water cooled cars take a lot of radiant engine heat.

It was the same problem on my 411 and 412's in Texas and Oklahoma heat. The engine compartment on a type 4 is fully sealed. Ambient temps can be in the 185 to 225 F range under the hood during extended highway driving in 100 F weather.

The fuel lines inside the engine compartment were always the ones I noticed getting stiff and cracking. I had to replace them every two years. Anything forward of the fire wall could stay supple for a couple more years but usually if I was buying fuel line to do the engine compartment...I would buy the whole cars worth as it was cheaper in larger quantities where I was buying it.

That...and if I was pressed for time....or pressed fro funds...it was plenty safe to redo the engine compartment lines and wait a month to do everything up to the tank. Ray

Oh, I know about the heat in that area. 100 straight days of 100+ degree heat really took it out of you without AC. This is the Burkburnett area (between Wichita Falls and Lawton).
But I still wonder if it was in some part the quality of the rubber. Just asking, as some of the older made stuff still looks good (under a car/truck) while the newer stuff is already degrading. Another example is what did GM do differently on their FI hoses, that have screw on ends to/at metal line fittings? I'm just asking, as my 30 year old Chevy truck has them, and they don't leak or aren't cracked. Same applies to the lines and hoses at the fuel tank. Was it better rubber? Different compounds? Or what? A year later GM went to braided stainless hoses to replace the rubber ones.

Yes....it IS partly the rubber. I wrote a lot about this here and on the STF a few years back.

Its partly the ethanol. Others...especially loud people from California :wink: ...will tell you its the ozone and pollution....and that is actually very, very minor so partially correct.

Taking the ozone issue first....there is no such animal as ground level ozone in a "free" state. I work around equipment that makes a VAST amount of ozone. Ozone is lighter than air. It rises. It ALWAYS dissipates from its source within about 10 feet of travel...UNLESS...it recombines electrochemically with various VOC's and/or free water vapor (high humidity)....which will then allow it to combine with micro particulates.

Yes...it creates smog. But smog does not eat our rubber hoses. So...its not the ozone.

Rubber hoses that are in sealed engine and equipment compartments with lots of arcing equipment (alternators, electric motors etc.) or used around high voltage UV curing lamp equipment (my industry)...yes...can have ozone damage.

I lived in Dallas for 6 years. They have the 2nd worst ozone problem in the country...meaning smog inversions when it hits 100F. Ozone causes the smog. Smog dos not cause ozone.

The rubber formulation issue:

Back in about 2009-2010 I think.....I made a note and did considerable research into the rubber issue..because it was affecting my end of the industry.
What I found is that stating from about 2000 on...there has been a moderate world shortage of ....Butadiene....used in high rubber for tires, hoses, molded parts, thermoset and extruded/molded plastics (my end of the industry) etc.

A big part of this...was the HUGE up-tick of the molding of plastic around the world for consumer products...especially nylons...which use butadiene.

Nylons are not just in demand for hard plastic versions of nylon. You are looking at nylon fiber for insulating and strengthening cloth for automotive sound damping, carpet, strengthening fibers in tires, molded rubber parts, packaging...and...automotive wise....the use of nylons are huge....fuel lines , suspension bushings and parts, carpet, seats, sound damping, electronics, wear bushings....the list goes on.

And....back to the rubber fuel lines and tires. Costs were rising. Demand was rising.

The Killer:

When the recession hit and GM nearly folded and needed to be bailed out....they owned a whole slew of tier 3 companies that supplied raw materials to their suppliers.

Some of these had one sole client chain....GM....but their over capacity supplied thousands of companies. One or two of these were chemical plants that made ...Butadiene as a secondary product...and nylons as their main product....about 25% of the world supply of it.

And while they could...in the long term ...probably have made a healthy living supplying all of the other people other than GM who needed chemicals and nylon....they did not have the instant connections...nor did all of these other companies want to buy from them (think Chinese).

So....without thinking...GM shed these companies and they instantly went out of business.

So now we have a full on shortage of one of the prime chemicals to make the best nylons and fluoroelastomers from.

And....with the recent investment in nylon usage by the transportation industries (not to mention medical, industrial cloth, appliances and electronics)....most of the Butadiene trade was pushing to supply the plastics makers.

So....the rubber makers....starting using the "other" recipes to make rubber.

You do not HAVE to use Butadiene. There are other catalysts and pre-cursor chemical recipes to make high end synthetic rubber.......but they are harder to control and do not always have the same attributes.....as we are seeing.

Also...a lot of the rubber manufacturers that have stepped in to fill gaps...are in China. And not only are they using alternate recipes...they are using crappier raw materials.

Butadiene and other chemicals...maybe no longer a shortage...but its still expensive because its in high demand for the nylon and plastic industry.

Back in the 2012-2014 range...there was a big rush to build nylon plants. An industry mag noted that in 2012 alone there were at least 4 new start up nylon plants on the Gulf coast.

Ray

Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:57 am

sourced some codan fuel line, new filter and some clamps today.
good weekend project.

Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:52 am

Thanks Ray. I had a feeling it was something like what you mentioned. Mainly because it seems the quality of rubber bits can be hit and miss, even for the same object.

Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:25 am

Peters Van wrote: sourced some codan fuel line, new filter and some clamps today.
good weekend project.

I'm keen to hear how this turns out...(both of them) although it doesn't appear that Codan products are available in the US so I'll be using Gates Barricade fuel line or teflon in the future.