TheSamba.com :: View topic - Spending money on upgrades to the Westy vs. Peace Vans Modern

Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:16 am

I agree on the 'investment'... depreciation needs to be considered.... my '87 Westy has 'gained' about $10k in value in the ten years I have had it. If I bought a Sprinter or similar ten years ago I would have 'lost' several $10k at this point. YMMV.

Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:09 am

Eric_Taylor wrote: My question really is, what are other peoples thoughts and experiences for them when it comes to these alternatives? Do these things tempt you or are you good with being buried in your van? Great thoughts so far. I love thinking about it, even if I know i'll probably keep the Vanagon forever.
When we bought ours the A/C system was complete but blew hot, so fixing that was a priority for summer travel in Virginia and environs. Then it failed inspection for a leaking exhaust so I bought and installed one of those. Then it failed later due to a leaking steering rack so I bought a rebuild kit and fixed that. We had an alternator crap out a thousand miles from home but I had a spare with me and changed it out. That kind of thing. Nothing has been overly daunting or costly and I've enjoyed most of it, although I will never (swearing with hand on Bentley manual here) replace an exhaust system in a gravel driveway in Virginia in August again.

Right now it needs to have the tank resealed and it needs a new canvas, and those things will get done. If the engine crapped out tomorrow my wife would tell me to sell it as is while I wouid lobby for a swap. Or, I might just sell it and move on. I'm not wedded to the van but I am wedded to the woman and I have learned to pick my fights. Plus, I'm not such a rabid VW or Vanagon guy that I feel I must keep this van on the road at all costs. It's been fun and it's taken us to some neat places but we could have gone there in a different vehicle, and longer future trips (Alaska, Baja, central Mexico) are trips the bride does not want to take in this vehicle.

Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:16 am

davevickery wrote: If someone just wants more modern, they can get a fairly low mileage 2001-2003 Eurovan Camper which is a bigger and better factory designed camper.

There isn't much of a market in the US for a micro camper in the $70K price range. The Sprinter popularity has proven that. I have yet to see anyone camping in a Metris. 3.8" of ground clearance, wow.

I love the Eurovans and can agree with you due to my Volkswagen preference but the average person won't be happy with $7000 transmission rebuilds and $6000 timing chains. The Euros are old now too...

I really really want a T6 awd and would buy right away if it were available:(

Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:21 am

Just like with the T3s, smart buyers spend time researching beforehand and actively seek out T4s with all those services previously completed. For the record, I am not one of those smart buyers, but I did buy from the original owners and I'm currently preemptively resolving both those issues for significantly less than those quoted prices. I am a very happy T4 camper.

Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:40 am

Anyone owning a Vanagon needs to be immune to mechanical repair sticker shock or to be a DIY mechanic. I have always been a DIY mechanic, so I have never had to deal with repair sticker shock. As some above have mentioned, it is actually fun to work on the Vanagon - - its simplicity and relative ease of repair helps in that regard.

My wife actually lobbied to have a newer (we don't buy new) Audi A4 wagon to replace her S6 sedan (which I kept), thinking it would be "more reliable". Wrong. The S6 was and remains solid. When a turbo coolant hose leaked, (which I easily repaired), she considered that the "last straw". Days after buying the replacement A4 Avant, (moderate miles on it and full dealer service records), the coolant system sprang a leak at the coolant distributor and the parts connected to that all crumbled in my hands when doing the repair. I ended up replacing every plastic part in the A4 cooling system as insurance. By the way, the underhood space is so tight that my knuckles paid dearly. I suppose I should mention that replacing a turn signal light bulb on that car is a 35 minute ordeal (and I am fast) with a lot of disassembly before the bulb can be accessed. These things don't happen with the antique Vanagon. It's simple and I like that.

Newer is not always more reliable. And newer is always harder to repair.

Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:51 am

The C4 Audi remains one of the most reliable vehicles I've ever come across.

Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:41 pm

DanHoug wrote: i see a few deciding factors on Westy ownership, not cast in stone but trends....

- the ability OR the willingness to learn to do the mechanical necessities on the 30 year old vehicle. (it does my heart good when i see folks wanting to learn these dark arts). or have $$ but then finding a competent mechanic that reads Samba obsessively is difficult.

- the size. these things are tiny compared to everything else out there. it is an advantage if you can live with the disadvantage! boils down to thinking minimalist instead of bringing it all.

- the attention. every trip you take will lead to conversations at the gas pump, grocery store, etc. our last trip those conversations led to a retired Ministry of Nat Resources guy telling about an incredible hidden waterfall 12km from where we were camping in Ontario. stuff like that.

- the Spore. don't know what else to call this but some of us are infected with what can only be described as some sort of spore that gets into us and takes over all reason, there's just something about these vans that we gotta have. they aren't fast, don't get good mpg, breakdown, difficult in wind and fast traffic, and on yet we can't let go when maybe we should.

I agree with Dan's comment above ^^^

Back is the late 70's, my mom took me to an RV place the had these new Trans-Van conversions. She wanted one soo bad. She had us kids dreaming about spending all day at the beach while she was at the helm in this cool Star Wars like vehicle. She would say things like how she would make lunch for my sister and I, and all the cool places we venture off to. It was really cool to see her all excited like that. Man I really wanted her to get one.

But...

My dad wasn't really crazy about them. His pals at the Elks lodge agreed with his opinion, so the dream that my mom had was crushed for a 28' Class-C Tioga instead. It was nice in every way, but she really couldn't drive it, nor would they allow this new behemoth into most of the socal beach parking lots. It turned into a major money pit, as my dad needed to pay to park it an a RV lot.

Here's an ad for the van she wanted

https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/dodge/tradesman/2144087.html

If I could go back in time, I think I would have pushed my dad to get one - as much as a 13 year old could anyway...

https://assets.hemmings.com/uimage/[email protected]?rev=1

Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:54 pm

How many shags were killed to kit out that thing?

Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:54 pm

Intelligently plunk $35,000 down on a 2WD Vanagon (half of the $70,000 price tag of base Metris + conversion) and you will have a Vanagon that is similarly reliable to a new Metris. 10-15 years down the road, you will have a Vanagon that has gone up in value and is now worth close to what the Metris (which has plummeted in value) is worth and you'll also have an extra $35,000 in your pocket.

Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:36 pm

?Waldo? wrote: Intelligently plunk $35,000 down on a 2WD Vanagon (half of the $70,000 price tag of base Metris + conversion) and you will have a Vanagon that is similarly reliable to a new Metris. 10-15 years down the road, you will have a Vanagon that has gone up in value and is now worth close to what the Metris (which has plummeted in value) is worth and you'll also have an extra $35,000 in your pocket.

This. Maybe it's part of my own disease in owning and loving this thing so much, but I've got to think your right. There are obviously a lot of "where's the market going threads" right now, but the uniqueness of these old vans will remain the same and I think there will always be interest in them and each year fewer and fewer are on the road.

The one real kicker with the family is safety. My wife wouldn't call the vanagon unsafe, but she would feel a lot safer in the Metris, especially with a kiddo. Is that safety peace of mind worth the depreciation vs. appreciation? I'm not sure.

Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:36 pm

There's an old (but apt) saying... "If it appreciates, buy it -- if it depreciates, lease it".

Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:39 pm

No way a sprinter or the like could make it on the trails I take our Westy. Quigley conversion nissans and older fords yea but still are too hulking. And your talking big $. Watched a brand new kitted out sprinter get stuck, give up and back down from a steepish gravel hill. I suppose the whole "built not bought" is a bit of a pride factor too. If your into that sort of thing.

Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:48 pm

?Waldo? wrote: ... and you'll also have an extra $35,000 in your pocket.
If one were to put that unspent $35k into a simple S&P Index fund at about 12% average annual growth, after 10 years it would grow to $109k. After 15 years, $192k.

Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:13 pm

Jeffrey Lee wrote: ?Waldo? wrote: ... and you'll also have an extra $35,000 in your pocket.
If one were to put that unspent $35k into a simple S&P Index fund at about 12% average annual growth, after 10 years it would grow to $109k. After 15 years, $192k.

Given a historical CAGR of just over 6% it's more reasonable to suggest that the $35K would grow to just under $70K in 10 years. Regardless, no matter how you slice it, buying an index fund will crush results delivered by any mass produced car.

Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:58 pm

If you have to ask you should buy the Mercedes

Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:32 am

jimf909 wrote: Jeffrey Lee wrote: ?Waldo? wrote: ... and you'll also have an extra $35,000 in your pocket.
If one were to put that unspent $35k into a simple S&P Index fund at about 12% average annual growth, after 10 years it would grow to $109k. After 15 years, $192k.

Given a historical CAGR of just over 6% it's more reasonable to suggest that the $35K would grow to just under $70K in 10 years. Regardless, no matter how you slice it, buying an index fund will crush results delivered by any mass produced car.

If you are under 30, putting that 35k into the SP500 means you are done with retirement saving.

I love toys but don’t ever confuse them with investments or think you are making money on them.

Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:24 am

the investment depends on what you want to spend and what kind of return you are looking for. you pay for your van with time, love, and uncertainty. if you can't pay for those, you're better off with a newer van. if you can, then you have some memories and experiences, even in the breakdowns. hopefully more than just the breakdowns!

dashed my hopes to post in the 'did you make it more than 1000 miles thread'

a bump start on the praries after starter burnt up (engaged itself during a rain storm)

Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:09 am

Zeitgeist 13 wrote: How many shags were killed to kit out that thing?
Those vans are the reason that shags are on the endangered species list today. :shock:

Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:41 pm

Eric, have you seen the Recon outlander? Designed by a guy who lived in a Westy for 5 years, it is a Nissan NV 2500 I believe. There is a video on youtube just put in Recon van and I think it will pop up. I believe cheaper than the Metris.

Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:04 pm

Eric_Taylor wrote:
My question really is, what are other peoples thoughts and experiences for them when it comes to these alternatives? Do these things tempt you or are you good with being buried in your van?

1) We bought our van because my wife and I are both rear-engine VW fans. My first car was a 74 Super Beetle and we had lots of good times in it and at VW shows. The van satisfies my "I want a classic hobby car" itch.

2) We also like to camp a lot.

If not for item #1, I don't think I would want any commercially available camping vehicle. We did just fine camping out of our Jetta and driving was more fun in some ways - and doubly so now that we have an Alltrack.

I could see getting a little pick up truck and DIYing a packing/sleeping system in the bed if we didn't have the van. The caveat to that is that my wife and I don't have kids and don't mind a bit of discomfort (she may disagree a bit).

So, at this point I don't think we'll ever "upgrade" to any other vehicle for camping. I would maybe consider trading the van for an air-cooled Porsche 911 although my wife would be furious.