TheSamba.com :: View topic - Body Panel Replacement

Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:23 pm

So, I've never welded anything in my life. Solder yes, weld no. How hard can it be? :) I've also never done any body-work, other than some 'fixes' back in highschool which involved lots of the spreadable stuff that no one likes to admit to...

I'm starting this thread to document my progress and hopefully invoke some 'Don't do that!' responses from the knowledgeable, before I do something that I will regret.

Here's the patient, 1977 T2 Westfalia:

Body rot and previous damage - yes, but not as bad as many of the projects that I've seen on here. That's encouraging.

My other encouragement is my son:

He's working through his treatments and really wants to go camping next Spring. I can't think of a much better reason than that.

So to start things off, here's a couple pics of the biggest areas of concern:

I've already bought myself some of the drill-bits for cutting out spot-welds and have removed the battery tray, as well as the spot welds along the rear-arch. I have a replacement battery tray, corner and the arch is enroute. I have to get a few more pics, but the 'C' pillar is rotted (both sides) and I'm really having a difficult time finding replacements. I'm planning on cutting out and doing the whole passenger arch panel from the door-frame to where it meets the corner, as it was hit at some point and it looks to be the best approach for me. I will take a few pics of what it looks like with the bondo removed.

I've posted several times in the Bay forum for other issues and am blown-away at the support that the VW enthusiasts here show. I have another classic vehicle of a more 'local' brand that I have had for a few years, and the help/support of the VW crowd completely crushes the competition!

Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:48 pm

if you have been a poster/reader/lurker for a while, you made an informed panel manufacturer decision? no klokenjunk?

Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:21 pm

Premium quality, European made.

Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:50 pm

So here's where I'm starting. Corner has damage, the bottom of it has lots of Bondo to match up to the rear of the arch.

The holes for the marker lights feel strong, so I'll likely cut under them, under the rear light and to the engine hatch.

The wheel arch has damage at the skirt:

And is pretty much gone in front of the wheel:

I was thinking about cutting from the rear of the door and going all the way around to the engine hatch. I'm concerned though that I won't have any reference points if I do that. Should I do arch panel first, then corner? Or would the other-way around be better?

Here's the C-pillar that I mentioned earlier, pretty much gone:

Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:48 pm

Also, do I drill out the welds in the door frame to remove the rear arch? Any sense in not cutting out where the side and the rear corner meet? It's damaged and full of bondo, so I figured it should go...

Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:44 pm

Congrats on the purchase! I have a sage green 1977 as well. Your gonna love it. I think it’s fun working on my bus and look forward to any hours I can invest in it.

If you don’t have much experience welding yet, your gonna get good real fast on a bus. The metal gauge is thin and somewhat unforgiving and if it heats up fast it will warp. I have to remind myself all the time to let it cool down and not keep welding as tempting as it is to just lay more weld.

My Bay didn’t have any rust to cut out, but I have a 65 split that needed the lower 6 inches and floors replaced. There are lots of similarities though. I thought I would take a few months and replace the front floor and that was all I was goin to tackle, but almost a year later, sadly, the front floor is still to go. You see, the doglegs needed attention and one replaced and it was connected to the B Pilar and that parts convergence had a inner rocker that went to the front of the rear wheel well and C Pilar. From there I took out my thin rusted floor and to the long wall and just now getting my cargo floor welded in and painted. Still need my rear corners worked, but those can wait till after my floors and controls are done. I’m guessing you will find something similar with rust when it pops daylight holes in the body it’s bad all up in there where you can’t see.

I’ve found that rust removal is a long tedious process. Take lots of pictures so when you get frustrated, you can go back and see your making progress.

I’ve also made a better effort to wear safety gear. Obviously eyes and ear protection, but lots of different gloves and masks. There are untold toxins in cutting through this old metal with paint on it and breathing the smoke that comes from welding weld through primer are just a few off the top of my head. Dust masks, respirators and good ventilation. Sanding filler, spraying paint lofts poison dust and all the solvents used pass pollutants through your bare skin and can make you sick. I change my clothes after I clean up my bus and shop each session so I don’t cross contaminate my car or home. I was always too tough for that stuff, but now I know better and quite sensitive to it. I always picture a raw steak with whatever dust I’m making rubbed all over it and that’s what I think my lungs look like if I breathed it unprotected. No bus is worth not being safe about it. Your prob allready good about it. Oh and lots of bandaids!

Can’t wait to see how you do. Thanks for taking the time to post your updates! That’s what makes coming here enjoyable and informative to the next guy.

Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:57 am

Being a UK chap and having spent 10 years full time restoring bays only I've restored many buses that looked like yours. They always look sort of ok until you start digging. That pne will need the works. I know it sort of looks not too bad, but here's some things I learned about picking a base bus to restore.
Tin roof and gutters, very time consuming, very difficult to get right - avoid vans with bad roof/gutters.
The difference between a £1500 bus and a £2500 bus is immense. Spending that extra £1k could save £500 of panels and a year of weekends. Start with the best you can afford.

People in the UK who restore buses like yours at home do it because they LIKE fabricating and panel replacement, it is rewarding and enjoyable. They PREFER restoring to using.

I spent a lot of time trying to talk prospective customers out of their madness. It's not cost effective to pay someone else, better to spend resto pot on a good one. I'd only do it if say their children were concieved in it or it was their grandads or they had it from new. In other words they had emotional attachment to it. EVEN THEN I'd try and talk them out of it because once restored it would be unrecogniseable as the bus they were attached to

So, where is this leading? My advice is to go round it again and look harder, not just at the obviously very bad parts. Look at every damaged panel. Be realistic. Then, BEFORE you start cutting and make it worthless, seriously consider selling as is and getting a better base to start with.

Sorry. :(

Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:57 am

I think I've seen one person on Samba start welding and move a project along well, the woman from MN.

Start welding simple metal before you go to auto pieces. Spend at least 6 months doing that first.

Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:31 am

Thanks for the advice so far. Just to give some background on this bus, the underside (except at the rockers) still has the original green paint on it, under the preservative coating and the whole camper interior is there and in great shape. This is a complete bus. I've already replaced all of the brake components and the engine is out getting rebuilt by a well-known local VW mechanic. Needless to say, I am invested in this bus and moving forward!

If anyone can provide some focused feedback on the questions that I posted, that would be greatly appreciated, as I would like to start cutting the rear-wheel arch soon. I have seen where people cut the panel out, except for the seams. Is this the best way to go, even when the seems are rough?

Thanks!

Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:39 am

Zed999 wrote: Being a UK chap and having spent 10 years full time restoring bays only I've restored many buses that looked like yours. They always look sort of ok until you start digging. That pne will need the works. I know it sort of looks not too bad, but here's some things I learned about picking a base bus to restore.
Tin roof and gutters, very time consuming, very difficult to get right - avoid vans with bad roof/gutters.
The difference between a £1500 bus and a £2500 bus is immense. Spending that extra £1k could save £500 of panels and a year of weekends. Start with the best you can afford.

People in the UK who restore buses like yours at home do it because they LIKE fabricating and panel replacement, it is rewarding and enjoyable. They PREFER restoring to using.

I spent a lot of time trying to talk prospective customers out of their madness. It's not cost effective to pay someone else, better to spend resto pot on a good one. I'd only do it if say their children were concieved in it or it was their grandads or they had it from new. In other words they had emotional attachment to it. EVEN THEN I'd try and talk them out of it because once restored it would be unrecogniseable as the bus they were attached to

So, where is this leading? My advice is to go round it again and look harder, not just at the obviously very bad parts. Look at every damaged panel. Be realistic. Then, BEFORE you start cutting and make it worthless, seriously consider selling as is and getting a better base to start with.

Sorry. :(

This is really good advice. I would recommend buying the Haynes restoration manual and spending some time with it before you start cutting anything. Sometimes less is more. Sometimes you have to drill out and replace an entire panel to get a decent result. Knowing what NOT to do is probably the most important thing. If your bus is in usable condition, use it. Do panel replacement a little at a time. Rust work is one of the most tedious and time consuming things I have ever done. It's prohibitively expensive to have someone do it for you. Good luck with your project.

Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:41 am

I have a few bits of advice for you. The big #1 would be do not start cutting into your bus until you have the replacement metal in hand. Nothing is worse than cutting out too much or making an uninformed cut on your bus only to realize that you don't have enough metal on your repair panel to replace what you removed.

#2 would be to keep as much original German metal on the bus as possible. A good inch or so away from any holes and you should be able to treat and keep the old metal, it will make indexing your repair panels much easier although may result in a bit more welding.

#3 in regards to welding. If you're just learning to weld, you NEED to practice. Don't try laying your first bead on the bus. There are TONs of great threads on here about bodywork, and tons of videos on the youtube. Overheating and warping the panels will kill your productivity. Small stitches and allow the panel to cool in between. Find some 20 gauge scrap metal and cut it apart and re weld it. Play with your wire speed and feed settings. It will take time to get it right and every machine is different. Make sure the area you are preparing to weld is CLEAN!

#4: Work on ONE AREA AT A TIME!!! You're looking at the rear quarter. Great. Don't move on or start working on another area until you have that bit completely welded up, finished and primed.

Godspeed and good luck. Welding is not difficult, but welding on sheet metal takes patience and tact.

Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:21 am

Thanks, I do have some new metal to practice on. I am assuming that I will also need to do some repair on the supporting metal behind the body panels, which won't be seen. I do have a replacement wheel arch panel already, but it has been cut. I can use this one for reference to make my cuts while the other comes in.

Another question to add to the list; Is it ok, to make a few cuts to take out the old metal in sections? Or best to do it in one whole piece?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:41 am

Hi Goach2!

Hats off, for jumping in the way you are! You've got your hands full with that bus. All of the advice you're getting is extremely sound. Take your time. That is the most important thing to doing body work. The reason you keep hearing that is because it is extremely unforgiving!

Check out this thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=525589

It won't give you all the answers you're looking for, but it will help immensely. This guy's work is excellent.

Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:48 am

Thanks white74westy, I've got that and a couple other threads bookmarked and have read them multiple times. He makes it look so easy ;)

Anyone want to jump in on some of my specific questions, please feel free!

Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:05 am

Goach2 wrote:
Another question to add to the list; Is it ok, to make a few cuts to take out the old metal in sections? Or best to do it in one whole piece?

Yes. It depends on the situation, but If you can do a couple small patches rather than replace an entire section, I would go that route. But like I said, it depends. Plan everything out, use some painters tape to plan out your cuts.

Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:08 am

Given the condition of the bus, you have a lot of metal replacement work and welding ahead of you. A LOT.

That said, remember that there is no reason any of this need keep you from going camping with your son. You can camp in a rust bucket. So, watch your priorities, and don't get so hung up on the metalwork that you put the bus out of service during camping season. You can do the metalwork AND go camping!

Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:19 am

Thanks advCo, I plan on keeping as much original metal as I can.

jtauxe - you are absolutely correct. I plan on tackling this rear quarter, since I will need the battery tray to get it to pass safety regardless. I only plan on doing what I can between now and the Spring to get it road-worthy. I have no issues with a project that I can use on the weekends :)

Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:45 am

Goach2 wrote: Thanks for the advice so far. Just to give some background on this bus, the underside (except at the rockers) still has the original green paint on it, under the preservative coating and the whole camper interior is there and in great shape. This is a complete bus. I've already replaced all of the brake components and the engine is out getting rebuilt by a well-known local VW mechanic. Needless to say, I am invested in this bus and moving forward!

If anyone can provide some focused feedback on the questions that I posted, that would be greatly appreciated, as I would like to start cutting the rear-wheel arch soon. I have seen where people cut the panel out, except for the seams. Is this the best way to go, even when the seems are rough?

Thanks!
As it's too late tp talk you out of it..one thing - protect your glass from grinder sparks and weld splatter.
I hope your neighbours are tolerant/far away. :)

Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:10 am

That is a nice bus. Do you plan to bring out the original paint (green)?

If I was restoring an identical bus (with identical rust areas) I would make a list of the areas that need rust restoration. From this list I would rank them from the easiest to the hardest area with the corresponding cost and time required to complete that area. Once I get that done I would then start with the easiest area just to get myself some experience and also develop some confidence.

I also need to avoid the feeling of “Being on a roll” because that is when I start doing more cutting, grinding & drilling. Before I know it I have ruined my project.

How are the B pillars in your bus?

Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:16 am

Oh yeah. Its a good idea to start on the hidden areas first to get your feet wet. More than likely you'll need to replace some metal in the fender wells, that would be a good place to start since its not seen from the outside so if its a little ugly it doesn't much matter.