TheSamba.com :: View topic - Any good Sound deadening material that doesn't damage paint?

Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:31 pm

I am looking for some good Sound deadening material that doesn't damage paint or leave a huge sticky mess when you go to remove it.

I know these panels are covered but I remember putting it on an older car of mine and 10 years later it was the worst thing ever to remove, it spent hours removing the sticky mess it created (and it damaged the paint). Any suggestions on what has easy removal and does a good job deadening the sound?

Thanks!

Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:26 pm

no. If you sound deaden you will make a mess removing it.

Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:02 pm

You are probably looking at some kind of material that doesn't stick then.

https://www.acoustimac.com/soundproofing-massloade...gIarvD_BwE

My Subaru uses something similar and its held in place by panel clips like these:

https://www.amazon.com/uxcell-Plastic-Rivets-Fastener-Fender/dp/B00W977G4K

Unlike the "fat mat" types of sound deadening, the above would need to cover the entire area. I don't know how the two types of products compare.

Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:09 am

Great question. I’ve always wondered about how sound deadener works and asked a friend. He had a bug in his shop and said tap that panel with your finger that doesn’t have any SD on it. It sounded like a snare drum. Now tap that one.... much quieter, but there was only a relatively small piece in the middle of the area. It seemed to do the job taking the harmonics out of the panel.

I see people post pictures that have every living inch covered my SD and I kinda think it’s overkill. It also looks like a removal nightmare in the future as well if you ever need to do body work etc.

For now, I only add patches of SD to the center of panels or the flat spots of easily accessed areas and call it a day. By that I mean I don’t get it all up in the corners, ribs and supports of my panels. It seems to dampen the sound fine and in the future, if I need to, I can deal with properly dissolving the adhesive in a small and accessible area.

Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:53 am

In my freshly painted Bus where I wanted to be able to remove the sound deadener in the future I cut pieces of sheet magnet slightly larger than the piece of sound deadener and attached the deadener to the magnet. Similar to what’s used on the side of trucks for advertising. I only used it in a few places. Everywhere else the deadener was used as it was intended. Nothing worthwhile will be easy to remove.

Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:36 am

Hoody wrote: In my freshly painted Bus where I wanted to be able to remove the sound deadener in the future I cut pieces of sheet magnet slightly larger than the piece of sound deadener and attached the deadener to the magnet. Similar to what’s used on the side of trucks for advertising. I only used it in a few places. Everywhere else the deadener was used as it was intended. Nothing worthwhile will be easy to remove.

Excellent idea! Do you think the magnet impairs the function at all?

Robbie

Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:16 am

asiab3 wrote: Hoody wrote: In my freshly painted Bus where I wanted to be able to remove the sound deadener in the future I cut pieces of sheet magnet slightly larger than the piece of sound deadener and attached the deadener to the magnet. Similar to what’s used on the side of trucks for advertising. I only used it in a few places. Everywhere else the deadener was used as it was intended. Nothing worthwhile will be easy to remove.

Excellent idea! Do you think the magnet impairs the function at all?

Robbie

I actually think this would work well and is brilliant as long as the magnet is strong enough.

Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:26 pm

Sign me up for magnetic SD!

I gotta think just the magnet sheet only would offer a level of dampening all on its own at some level.

For me it’s about what level of deadening your going for. From none to complete. My Westy has zero aftermarket deadening and engine noise is really not an issue. We can talk in the bus and listen to music fine. I catch more wind noise from my vent window than anything, so I’m not adding any to that vehicle.

The 65 standard project was really loud when I first got it and took some short test drives. Definitely had to raise your voice to talk in it while driving. It had holes in the cargo floor and almost a foot square at the feet of each front passenger. So much road noise. Rattling doors with missing seals, etc. Also, no interior panels at all. Basically a rattling, rumbling tin can. Now that the floors are solid metal....and while I refresh my windows, I’ve been adding a 8-9 in square to the center of each panel section. For me, I think that’s all that’s necessary. Just enough to keep each section from being a drum head. When I stick that stuff to the body I just cringe thinking it’s a mistake, so I’m not overdoing it, but you do whatever you think you need to on your bus.

Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:38 pm

WOW! The magnet sheet is an EXCELLENT idea!

Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:56 pm

My understanding of how these sound deadeners work has to do with the mass loaded vinyl being bonded tightly to the thin metal you're trying to dampen. Some posted an experiment testing many different brands of sound deadeners. The adhesive seemed as important as the vinyl formulation they used. With the magnetic sheeting, you only have that, much weaker, bonding force instead.

Yes, the magnetic sheeting should offer some sound deadening on it's own.

I will share one last piece of information I just learned about the magnetic sheeting... it's made out of plastic impregnated with magnetized steel particles.

My first question... will it rust?

I haven't added any to my bus yet, but I plan to install it like WildIdea, a small piece in the center of all large spans.

Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:11 pm

Wow, this webpage still exists. I can't even imagine putting all this shit in the walls of my bus. Just imagine having a water incursion that you wouldn't be able to see or having to do any welding ever again. At some point I probably will insulate my bus and the most I would do is some dynamat in very small sections. Everything else would have to be easily removable. At some point I will have to glue the replacement rubber mat to the back of the seat pedestals, but I will use the very minimum of glue. I still remember pulling the originals off many years ago; the rotted rubber, glue and rust scabs were all one indistinguishable mass.

Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:05 pm

I am def going to try the magnetic stuff. You only need small amounts, there's no overkill on work involved. And no adhesive.
I think it's plenty strong enough to stay put on it's own. And it won't rust, the particles are embedded in plastic.
It's not going to stop all of the noise, but will certainly stop the rattle of the metal.

Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:00 pm

Hikelite wrote: My understanding of how these sound deadeners work has to do with the mass loaded vinyl being bonded tightly to the thin metal you're trying to dampen. Some posted an experiment testing many different brands of sound deadeners. The adhesive seemed as important as the vinyl formulation they used. With the magnetic sheeting, you only have that, much weaker, bonding force instead.

You're close, but confusing names of the products a little.

Products like dynamat and all the similar materials need to be installed tightly to the metal. (Or a magnet in this conversation.) They primarily reduce sound by keeping the metal panels from vibrating/resonating.

Mass loaded vinyl is a different product and used differently. It's job is to physically block the sound from entering the space. To work best, it needs to be as sealed up as possible, with no gaps or openings. And it actually needs to be "decoupled" from the metal of the car, or vibrations will be transmitted right through it. Typically, a thin layer of foam is used for this.

Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:20 am

vwwestyman wrote: Hikelite wrote: My understanding of how these sound deadeners work has to do with the mass loaded vinyl being bonded tightly to the thin metal you're trying to dampen. Some posted an experiment testing many different brands of sound deadeners. The adhesive seemed as important as the vinyl formulation they used. With the magnetic sheeting, you only have that, much weaker, bonding force instead.

You're close, but confusing names of the products a little.

Products like dynamat and all the similar materials need to be installed tightly to the metal. (Or a magnet in this conversation.) They primarily reduce sound by keeping the metal panels from vibrating/resonating.

Mass loaded vinyl is a different product and used differently. It's job is to physically block the sound from entering the space. To work best, it needs to be as sealed up as possible, with no gaps or openings. And it actually needs to be "decoupled" from the metal of the car, or vibrations will be transmitted right through it. Typically, a thin layer of foam is used for this.

You're right about my mixup of terminology.
I meant products like FatMat. A large part of their performance is based on how well they are bonded to the surface they are trying to dampen. My point was the strength/force of the magnetic bond is significantly less than that of the adhesive, so you are going to reduce the effectiveness of the dampener product.

Like someone else said, the magnetic sheet alone would provide some level of dampening. Perhaps you could find a very heavy magnetic sheet. I did notice it can be ordered in various thickness, and therefore weights. It also seems the thicker the sheet, the stronger the magnetic force.

Which is cheaper? If the 'dynamat' type product is more expensive, it would probably make thicker, or doubling, magnetic sheet the better option.

This is... if it truly isn't a risk for rust.
I'm not convinced the iron particles are "embedded" in the plastic to the point they won't corrode. The descriptions of the sheeting say one side is more magnetic than the other. Since the metal containing plastic costs more (additional ingredient and process to add it), I bet they are applying a layer of the iron doped plastic to one side of another sheet of plastic. If the whole sheet was impregnated with the iron particles, it wouldn't be more magnetic on one side.

Ever looked closely at those refrigerator magnets? I'm pretty sure I can see the shiny particles in there. I think they are exposed to the air and will eventually rust. hmmmm maybe I'll go put one outside as a test. :)

I do think the magnetic sheeting idea could have some merit if I can resolve the rust issue. What about a layer of plastic, ie saran wrap, between the paint and the magnet sheet?

I'll go put a magnet out in the rain and report back if I see any changes.

Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:48 am

A few years ago, I bought some different bumper stickers on ebay, and some of those magnetic heating vent covers (which in my mind must be the same type of sheeting being discussed) and put the stickers on the sheet, so that I could have fun bumper stickers on the Bus but not have to worry about sticking them to the paint.

There is also one magnet that stays on the front of the brown bus all the time and has been on the bus for years. (The Kokopelli)

I have never observed any rust anywhere on the magnets.

However, water and dust does find it's way between the magnet and metal. Also, I move the kokopelli around and many times when I do (if it has been a long time in between), I can notice it's "shadow" in the paint for a little while. That usually fades pretty quick though and doesn't seem to have any long term effects either.

So the magnets may work in places where water can't get to the panel, but I would probably hesitate to place them in the front doors at least.

Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:54 am

why even worry about it. You'll sell the bus before ever ripping sound deadening out. If you are worried about water getting behind it use some automotive jute held on by spray glue. You can sand it off if you ever go to repaint it, and it breathes.

Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:55 am

So inside my doors of the 74 Westy, the deadening has actually peeled off in places. I was going to put fresh stuff back on. But dayum Hoody, you da man 8)

I have a couple large sheets of the magnet stuff I held onto for a couple years. Now I can put it to use.

Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:54 am

There is a big difference in terminology. There are sound blockers...and sound deadeners/absorbers.

The products like dynamat and the magnetic vinyl.....which is not actually that special...its just a slightly tweaked magnetic vinyl that has been found to have sound transmission blocking properties and has been re-purposed....are sound blockers.

They block the resonation of the sound through a metal or plastic surface.

Sound deadeners or absorbers...which work a little like mufflers to produce a labyrinth of either semi-inert voids that sound cannot transmit through (foamed products are this way)...or a lattice work of air filled voids that cause the sound wave to rattle around until it loses energy...softening the sound, changes velocity (pitch or sharpness)....or gets dissipated.

This last product type is what 100% of modern cars use...all over the place. These range from compacted cloth and fiber matting materials, chopped fibers with various adhesives or plastic holding them together etc.

One of my clients in Ontario gave me a tour of their plant that produces these materials for about three Toyota plants, at least one Ford plant and several GM and Nissan plants.

More precisely they produce parts from these wide ranging materials. They do heat and compression forming, laser cutting, die cutting and stamping.

In most cases these materials are found covered in mouse fur and carpet for back decks in cars (my Golf back deck is made of stamped fiber deadener covered in mouse fur) ...and in raw, multilayered fiber inside of each door, as underhood deadener mats, under just about every dash made, inside of the doors shaped to fit at the top slot where the glass slides in and out....you name it.

These materials are nothing like any of the aftermarket sound deadening mats almost all of which also block heat. If it has foil...its a combination heat blocking matt. Also...almost all of them are super light and installed with no adhesive.
They use panel clips. Adhesive is expensive, heavy, damages things with over spray and the evaporated solvents have to be accounted for in air quality permit (expensive) and frequently the adhesive causes issues with the flame travel and toxic combustion gas ratings.

These materials are why modern cars are so quiet. Most are encapsulated chopped glass or polyester fiber. Tyvek (Polyolefin) of certain types is also used. as well as polypropylene. They can be made of a huge range of materials...but must at least have a UL 94 flame travel rating....fire retardant. And...they have to be non biological supporting if they get moisture on them.

There are tons of these materials around and they are not hard to buy....its just that you do not readily find them when Goggling "sound blockers" or "sound deadener materials". This is because these are for the most part...materials not designed specifically for sound deadening materials. Most are listed as "non-woven" synethic cloths for industrial uses.

In fact the plant up in Ontario takes the materials in in roll form...single layer...and heat laminates them into multiple plies...and then forms and cuts them.

You can make these same materials out...for instance....laminating together several layers of Tyvek. The secret is depth/thickness and air voids. It depends on what structure is chosen.

What you are looking for is spun bonded non-woven cloth material and matting. Ray

Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:26 pm

Great googilly moogilly Ray,

You are a fricken national treasure with your endless knowledge and bottomless explanations of obscure relevance.
It’s alway enlightening, refreshing and slightly disheartening to read your thread ruminations, knowing I’m now the wiser, but can’t comprehend how I could ever put that many penguins on the iceberg that is my own head!

Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:48 pm

aerosurfer wrote: Great googilly moogilly Ray,

You are a fricken national treasure with your endless knowledge and bottomless explanations of obscure relevance.
It’s alway enlightening, refreshing and slightly disheartening to read your thread ruminations, knowing I’m now the wiser, but can’t comprehend how I could ever put that many penguins on the iceberg that is my own head!

Thanks!...I think ... :lol:

Oh...and on the subject of penguins...... :lol: ...nah...just kidding....

While it may have been informational....just not sure it was helpful because I cant just point someone to a product. But what I can do....is ask my friends in Ontario...if there is some non proprietary "yard goods" of what they use...available.
They may even be able to just offer some of the material after lamination......for sale without any shaping or cutting....that some people could use to tack up in their bus or other ACVW.

The owner of this company.....is an automotive enthusiast beyond compare. He has a vast collection of project cars....like about 20 containers full. he collects and restores Cords and Studebaker pick ups ...to concors level...no kidding. His classic car connections are vast. His skills and resources are beyond what I have.

It would not be out of the question at all...that if a conversation nets the ability to produce an insulating material product line....specifically for classic ACvW...that they wouldn't offer it. Business is business.

Last time I was up there....he was doing the stitching on an industrial serger sewing machine...yes himself....of leather onto these same type of heat molded insulating interior panels that they had made and laser cut...for the limited edition Ford GT sports car.

I may get to talk to them this week.

Its not a problem getting their interest in a project. As long as the technical details can be tacked down and reasonable pricing and quantity agreed to....business is business. Ray