TheSamba.com :: View topic - flywheel endplay/glad nut remove & install

Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:46 am

I have a few question. I am going replace main seal.

1)When removing flywheel for main seal replacement will is damage glad nut to use a impact wrench?

2) If I purchase a torque multiplier and use to install glad nut, I use a 3/8 torque wrench but what setting on the torque multiplier do I sent it on?

3)Have read/heard to apply red Loctite to glad nut. Shouldn't be blue or no loctitie?

4)Do I always need to check endplay on flywheel before removing glad nut?

5) IF endplay is within spec (.o35-.05???) can I use same shims?

Any other helpful tip you have would also be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:47 am

mrduxs67 wrote: 1)When removing flywheel for main seal replacement will is damage glad nut to use a impact wrench?

2) If I purchase a torque multiplier and use to install glad nut, I use a 3/8 torque wrench but what setting on the torque multiplier do I sent it on?

Using an impact wrench to loosen a gland nut will not damage the the gland nut. However, if you do purchase a torque multiplier tool to use for tightening, use that for gland nut removal. With tightening, use 30 ft lbs on the 3/8 torque wrench; I recently bought this tool (used breaker bar or impact wrench in the past) and it's stamped right on the tool, but I haven't needed to use the tool yet.

mrduxs67 wrote: Have read/heard to apply red Loctite to glad nut. Shouldn't be blue or no loctitie?
I use a little Blue Loctite; some use none.

mrduxs67 wrote:
4)Do I always need to check endplay on flywheel before removing glad nut?

5) IF endplay is within spec (.o35-.05???) can I use same shims?
If you're using the same flywheel and same shims, and just changing the crankshaft oil seal AND THE FLYWHEEL O-RING, you could likely get by without checking and/or adjusting the end play. I check my own using a feeler gauge. So if you measure it correctly, and are within 0.003 to 0.005 inches, that's good, and same shims are fine. Note that end play measurement is more difficult when the pistons/cylinders are installed, so do that correctly.

mrduxs67 wrote: I am going replace main seal.

Any other helpful tip you have would also be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Use sealant (such as Permatex Aviation) on the OUTER surface of the oil seal. I've historically just tapped in these seals evenly working around in a circle, using a 1/2 inch wooden dowel, and no issues. I've recently purchased the special seal install tool, but haven't used it yet.

Once the seal is installed, oil the inner lip of the seal (engine oil) and also the corresponding surface on the flywheel. Don't forget the flywheel O-ring either.

Before reinstalling the engine, lube the transmission shaft and gland nut bearing with grease. And same for the starter teeth. If you need a new starter bushing, this would be a good time to R&R that. Also a good time to lube up the clutch cable threads and wing nut. Check the rear transmission mounts before the install too. Also a good time to replace the 2 rubber engine seals if you need to. Also a good time to put a hose clamp on the FORWARD side of the fan shroud to prevent the metal accelerator tube from "walking" rearward. Use a clutch disc alignment tool when torquing the pressure plate bolts properly to keep that disc aligned for installation. If the engine fights getting seated fully, turn the engine over a TAD with a wrench and keep trying.

Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:16 am

use of locktight is not needed.

Bug On!

Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:21 am

use a new preferably a chromoly gland nut, deburr the edges good so they dont dig into the washer. torque to 320 min. check to see if the rear main bearing is moving in the case, if it is just stop and rebuild the engine before there is nothing left..... or do like bubba and throw it back togeather and let it eat.

Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:58 am

thanks for all the advice

Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:37 pm

The rule is, "If the shims are dished, Replace with same thickness, then check end play after torqueing". Are you using a Torqmister multiplier or one that you rent from the local auto parts store? If you think you need any locking compound on the nut just try removing the nut with just a breaker bar and socket.

Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:59 pm

Starbucket wrote: . Are you using a Torqmister multiplier or one that you rent from the local auto parts store? If you think you need any locking compound on the nut just try removing the nut with just a breaker bar and socket.

If i can get by with loaner tools and not purchasing then I would rather do that at this time. All spare $ goes into "Brisco". I have a 1/2 impact that has 800ftlbs of torque but will not be able to determin how much torque Im applying.
Can I just use my impact to torque glad nut down? I don't think so but this is my first time.

Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:39 pm

mrduxs67 wrote: Starbucket wrote: . Are you using a Torqmister multiplier or one that you rent from the local auto parts store? If you think you need any locking compound on the nut just try removing the nut with just a breaker bar and socket.

If i can get by with loaner tools and not purchasing then I would rather do that at this time. All spare $ goes into "Brisco". I have a 1/2 impact that has 800ftlbs of torque but will not be able to determin how much torque Im applying.
Can I just use my impact to torque glad nut down? I don't think so but this is my first time.

Rent the loaner and use basic math to figure out the torque IE 5-1 multiplier = 240 divided by 5 = 48. A lot of motors have had the gland nut impacted on and lived and a lot more suffered major head- aches from doing it. Buy a flywheel lock as they are cheap.

Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:40 pm

mrduxs67 wrote: Starbucket wrote: . Are you using a Torqmister multiplier or one that you rent from the local auto parts store? If you think you need any locking compound on the nut just try removing the nut with just a breaker bar and socket.

If i can get by with loaner tools and not purchasing then I would rather do that at this time. All spare $ goes into "Brisco". I have a 1/2 impact that has 800ftlbs of torque but will not be able to determin how much torque Im applying.
Can I just use my impact to torque glad nut down? I don't think so but this is my first time.

NO!!!!!!
Use a torque wrench. if torqued wrong, too much or too little, the motor can be ruined.

Many autoparts stores offer free tool loans, AutoZone, Oreillys both do this, and both have online listings of what tools they loan, for free. Take advantage of this generous loaner deal!

Good Luck, and as always, BUG ON!

Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:45 pm

As long as you tighten the gland nut down to the proper torque (or a bit more) it will properly stretch and not come loose. 250ft-lbs is spec, but they can take 300ft-lbs.

I would measure the end-play before and after. A problem some have encountered is when installing the main seal they didn't seat it all the way into the opening of the case. The raised seal will apply pressure on the flywheel surface. When you finish bolting everything back together the end-play is down to ZERO because the seal is jammed against the flywheel.
If you install the main seal properly the end-play will not change when using the same crank+shims+flywheel. Use the before/after measurements to confirm this.

Oh, and given a choice between impact gun or torque buddy tool to remove the gland nut... as Cusser suggests, go with the torque buddy.
It is the difference between 2 guys slowly pushing a heavy safe with constant pressure... or whacking it with a sledge hammer to get it to move 5ft. Both will get you there eventually, but one is gentler on the safe.

Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:02 pm

No sealant on the FW seal OD. Just make sure the case opening for it is smooth and not corroded up. If it needs it, use 300 or 400 grit wet dry sandpaper to polish it smooth again. Once you are done wipe it clean in there and apply oil to the bore and seal OD so it just slides into place.

Agreed, get some type of torque wrench to tighten down the FW nut, or at very least use a 3/4 drive breaker bar and do the math of how much you weigh so you figure where to stand on the breaker bar to get the correct torque. Better to spend money on tools to do a proper job, than to have to rebuild the engine again.

Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:27 pm

I've always used some sealer on the outer edge of the seal, likely my repair manual stated to do this, or I would not have.

O'Reilly has free loaner torque wrench that goes to 250 ft lbs, I used that on my 1970's gland nut and rear axle nuts.

Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:57 pm

The loaner tools are a nice feature from the auto parts store.
The last time I did not go to the auto parts store for the torque wrench and Cusser is not around the corner either. I marked the point of the nut before removal and put it back to the same spot or a lil further.
I use a light grease on the seal and flywheel contact point where the seal lands. Oh the seal must go at least as far as the bevel in the case.

Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:17 pm

Wow thanks so much for the positive feedback/advice. I'll go with with either a loaner torque wrench or buy a tourgue buddy

Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:22 pm

Cusser wrote: I've always used some sealer on the outer edge of the seal, likely my repair manual stated to do this, or I would not have.
.

The VW Official Service manual does state to use a sealer, but problem with most sealers is they will set up and have to be cleaned out later. Making for more of a mess next time and possibly screwing up the sealing surface when digging out the hardened sealer.

VW also stated to use a sealant between the starter and transaxle. Personally will just use a dielectric grease there to keep down the corrosion from coming back (causing a voltage drop there) for a very long time.

Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:23 pm

Cipi1 has the Torquemeister tool for $71.99. No sales tax. No shipping charge. It is a great tool for the gland nut, as well as the rear wheel nuts. Bite the bullet and get it. You’ll need it again, believe me.

The Torquemeister will probably say on it that it multiplies X 9. So, using a 3/8 inch ratchet, you simply set your 3/8 torque wrench to 28 ft. lbs. That will deliver 252 ft. lbs. to the gland nut. Since 253 is required, I tighten just a teeny-tiny bit after my torque wrench clicks. That way, I know I’ve got the minumum 253 ft. lbs.

I do not use any Loctite on the gland nut. If you torque to spec, you have no need. Just be sure you put the wavy washer pointing the in the correct position.

Also, I have a buddy bar to hold the flywheel from moving while a tighten or loosen the gland nut. This is nice to have, but that’s another $30-something dollars. You at LEAST want to buy the flywheel lock. This will hold the flywheel also while tightening and removing, and costs about half, compared to the buddy bar.

I measure the freeplay with the flywheel seal removed. From what I’ve heard, this is the most accurate method. After ascertaining your freeplay, just take the flywheel off again and install the seal.

I install the seal using white grease—after making sure the bore is nice and smooth, as others have mentioned. Oil the o-ring, inside of the seal lip, and horn of the flywheel, as Cusser mentioned. I have a screw-in seal installer for installing the seal. It automatically stops turning when the seal is a little PAST flush. I had bad luck installing, using the board and hammer method, so I bought this tool the following weekend after I found that I’m not very good at pounding in flywheel seals. This tool is kind of foolproof, really. But ... you can also use a large washer from the hardware store. Just tap the washer evenly, round and round, and make sure the washer is a little smaller that the bore, but large enough to set the seal properly. This washer will cost a couple bucks at ACE Hardware.

Torque clutch pressure plate bolts to 18 ft. lbs., and make sure you use the star pattern, going round and round a bit at a time. When doing this, be sure to check the bottom of the pressure plate edge to see that it is actually seating inside the flywheel groove. It sometimes moves down a tad, so be sure it’s centered. Also, as mentioned previously, get the centering clutch tool. They’re cheap.

Lastly, do NOT use much grease on the transmission splines, or the end of the transmission shaft. And use very little on the bearings in the gland nut. Just spin a pinky-dab in those bearings. If you over grease, the stuff flings onto your clutch plate and your clutch will grab. Not fun.

I do recommend a new gland nut, unless your felt seal is still intact. If it is, just reuse the old gland nut. Dab a thin layer (using the pinky again) of oil on the felt.

Check clutch adjustment when done. 3/4 inch freeplay works best for me.

Tim

Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:02 pm

Like I said: I've used the loaner 250 ft lb torque wrench at least twice. I have a 150 ft lb TW myself, and used to figure that I could take that to 150 ft lbs and then use breaker bar for more, but I've since discarded that idea as being lazy (for loaner TW) or too cheap to buy a 250 ft lb TW or a Torque Tool.

I figured that the only time I'd need over 150 ft lbs would be for VW gland nut and rear axle nuts, and Torque Tool was less expensive than a 250 ft lb TW, so went with the Torque Tool as that can also help loosen real stubborn stuff. And besides, Mrs. Cusser wanted to reward me !!!

Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:30 pm

Tim Donahoe wrote: Cipi1 has the Torquemeister tool for $71.99. No sales tax. No shipping charge. It is a great tool for the gland nut, as well as the rear wheel nuts. Bite the bullet and get it. You’ll need it again, believe me.

Tim

^^^^This^^^^

Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:15 am

mrduxs67 wrote: I have a 1/2 impact that has 800ftlbs of torque but will not be able to determin how much torque Im applying.
Can I just use my impact to torque glad nut down?
Impact guns are GREAT for taking OFF stubborn fasteners. And even useful for speeding up the install of some fasteners (lug nuts), BUUUUUT.... you should ALWAYS confirm the torque with a proper torque wrench.

While I question your impact gun will actually produce 800 ft-lbs of torque(:shock:), that much torque on a nut rated for 250 ft-lbs could damage the gland nut to failure. That is as bad (or worse) as not torqueing the nut enough. Too much torque could stress/stretch the fastener too much. This results in the fastener eventually breaking/failing. That could be worse than the fastener slowly working loose. If it comes loose you may get a warning before the flywheel comes loose, tearing thru the bell housing and ripping the body apart. With a gland nut failure the flywheel comes loose w/o warning.