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Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:30 am

Hi
The PO had put coil over shocks in all for corners on my 70 beetle convertible, I want to replace all of them as part of my refurbish project. Will I see a huge difference between the shocks that Wolfsburg West has(there own brand that matches factory original oil filled) to a set of Bilstein? I don't want to spend the extra money on Bilsteins have much better ride/handling. The roads I drive are all fairly smooth but a lot of corners.

Thanks for the input

Dave

Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:46 am

A recent thread discussing the pros and cons of different shocks:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=720550&highlight=shocks

Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:36 am

AlmostHeavenWV_VW wrote: A recent thread discussing the pros and cons of different shocks:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=720550&highlight=shocks

Yes I had read that, I guess I was looking for more of personal experience with those two brands and whether I would see that much of a difference to warrant the price difference.

Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:12 am

In my personal opinion/experience, you will see differences in the shocks when the valving is different between the shocks you are comparing.

If you rallycross, or do lots of 'spirited' driving- you may notice more of a difference with higher cost suspension components. Mainly you would find they may have a longer service life with the increased stress/strain of the driving style.

However, for most people it's merely going to be a personal preference of ride 'quality' (i.e. 'stiffer' or 'softer')

I bought gabriels, they are great I think

Have read many people have bought and used the WW shocks on their 'on-road' bugs with great success and satisfaction.

It seems the cheaper KYB shocks don't seem to do so well. Upper level KYBs appear to be okay though.

With cheap shocks, they won't last as long though.

If you are going to just drive it normally, I'd say you would be more than happy with Gabriel, WW, or Blistens. Just depends on how much you'd like to spend.

Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:16 am

WW is selling their own shocks now?

I put Sachs up front and KYB in the rear. It doesn't drive like a new car but it makes a great difference.

Check around on prices on shocks. I've seen them marked up quite. They can be had for rather a good deal.

Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:54 pm

heimlich wrote: WW is selling their own shocks now?

They have been for awhile- I got mine from them about 5 years ago and they are holding up great. They are pretty much exact copies of the OEM Sachs/ Boge oil filled shocks.

Rockauto has the Sachs/Boge front shocks for a bit cheaper than WW but when you add shipping and tax it probably comes out to about the same...

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=5473524&cc=1280168

Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:40 am

Are you expecting your VW to ride like a Cadillac or like a Porsche? If you’re afraid of input from the road, get the oil filled stock type replacements. If you like a firmer, well controlled ride, get the Bilsteins, either way will be a vast improvement over the crappy EMPI coilover shocks.

You can get the Bilsteins at Autozone & use their regularly available 20%-25% coupons to bring the cost down.

Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:50 am

If you want to overpay and grab some crappy riding shocks that don't make a whit of difference in handling, get the Bilsteins. You can get them at your local autozone and use a 20% off coupon to bring the cast down to only a bit more than the true OEM style smoother riding and perfectly handling oil filled shocks.

Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:21 pm

Input from the peanut gallery that has obviously never driven or ridden in a vehicle equipped with Bilsteins. :roll:

Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:45 pm

says the guy who ran his mouf insisting that anyone using oil filled shocks for a smoother better ride experience is "afraid of input from the road."
Not everyone treats their aircooled VWs like shit like you do. Where is that video again of you tearing the shit out of one down a dirt road?

Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:04 pm

WW doesn't manufacture shocks. They get a shock absorber company to put in a WW box, it's called private labeling, contracting....

Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:05 pm

sb001 wrote: says the guy who ran his mouf insisting that anyone using oil filled shocks for a smoother better ride experience is "afraid of input from the road."
Not everyone treats their aircooled VWs like shit like you do. Where is that video again of you tearing the shit out of one down a dirt road?

Which video? I have lots of them proving the car’s ability & also how well the Bilsteins control the movement. I built my car to enjoy it as I like.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=724594

Having put almost 27,000 hard miles on it in just 14 months, I have more than enough seat time with Bilsteins, with just this car, to give factual insight on their quality & performance as opposed to your uninformed opinion.

Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:04 pm

And I have 5 years on my WW oil filled shocks, showing absolutely zero signs of wear and enjoy it as I see fit, a smoother ride on paved roads and still great on handling in turns and even dirt roads which i do drive just not stupidly, and a cheaper price to boot for those of us who shop wisely instead of impulsively. Obviously the OP is free to choose whatever he likes and whatever reflects his driving style best but your insult that oil filled shock users are "afraid of road input" had absolutely zero place in this conversation

Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:12 pm

Although pricey, I'm very happy with the red KONI's.
They are adjustable and offers the performance and handling of a nitrogen charged shock with the smooth ride of an oil filled shock absorber.

Regards.

Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:56 pm

TDCTDI wrote:
^ ^ ^ 8) 8)
Awesome vid Sir, love the soundtrack too!

daveswoodcraft wrote: Will I see a huge difference between the shocks that Wolfsburg West has (there own brand that matches factory original oil filled) to a set of Bilstein?
... The roads I drive are all fairly smooth but a lot of corners.
Yes a huge difference. Depending on the setup though...

Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:31 am

daveswoodcraft wrote: Will I see a huge difference between the shocks that Wolfsburg West has(there own brand that matches factory original oil filled) to a set of Bilstein?

The Bilsteins are more expensive, will ride much harsher and offer maybe the slightest tinge of improvement in cornering. In a real track car they probably make a considerable difference. In an air cooled VW, they are a ridiculous idea, because as TDC's videos above prove no air cooled VW is a track car. Oil filled are a much nicer ride and offer about the same capability in handling during everyday driving. If you're going around hairpins at 80, maybe the Bilsteins are the right choice, I guess it depends on what your track day plans are, and whether you respect your VW unlike the videos above.

Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:10 am

daveswoodcraft wrote: Will I see a huge difference between the shocks that Wolfsburg West has(there own brand that matches factory original oil filled) to a set of Bilstein? I don't want to spend the extra money on Bilsteins have much better ride/handling. The roads I drive are all fairly smooth but a lot of corners.

Yes, you will absolutely experience a huge difference in handling between oil filled shocks & the Bilsteins. The Bilsteins will reduce the sway & roll of the body, especially as the vehicle transitions from one corner to the next, or if there is a bump or a dip in the corner that could unsettle the vehicle. The Bilsteins will also reduce the vehicle’s tendency of yawing and or leaning when subjected to crosswinds or wind buffeting from large trucks. My car has not only been lifted six inches but I am also running it without sway bars to get rid of the tendency to understeer and for articulation reasons. I can easily keep up with or catch modern cars on twisty mountain roads.

Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:19 am

Maddel wrote: TDCTDI wrote:
^ ^ ^ 8) 8)
Awesome vid Sir, love the soundtrack too!

Thank you sir!

Joe Satriani’s Headless Horseman was hands down the best song for this video.

If you watch the video, watch how the front roof rack bar moves back & forth in the image. The GoPro was solidly mounted to the rear bar, the car was sideways through the whole video & the image stabilization was fighting to keep the image in the forward direction. I chose that viewpoint so you could also see the steering input, in many of the turns, you can see the counter steering necessary to keep the vehicle in the desired direction. :lol:

Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:37 am

It was discussed in that previous thread, but I'll just summarize it here so that anyone in the future doesn't get confused or misled.

Oil filled vs gas filled shocks = oil filled can have 'cavitation' of the oil during frequent pistoning cycles(think frequent bumps and/or "washboard" dirt roads). This cavitation(air bubbles in the oil) causes a negative effect on the dampening abilities of the shock. Gas shocks are not nearly as prone to this cavitation effect(since they have no oil to cavitate)

MOST shocks sold nowadays are all gas filled- The gabriels I bought, KYB, Monroe, plus probably others. The WW shocks, as discussed above may or not be copies of the Sach/boge brand.

If you simply desire full on restoration type of correctness...you need oil filled. If you just desire a 'stock riding' bug...just get the properly vavled shocks.

The MOST important thing about how the shocks 'feel' when you drive is the internal valving. But how do you know what type of valving the shock has?!? Short answer: the product descriptions

From the other thread:
AlmostHeavenWV_VW wrote: Multi69s wrote: Gas shocks DO NOT make the ride harder or softer, if you get the proper shocks for your application. This is probably the biggest suspension myth across all types of cars. [....]

Perhaps I may have been misunderstood. I advised the OP to avoid gas shocks, they tend to be too ***harsh*** ride for most people's taste.

I agree with Multi69- get the proper shocks for your application.

Example: The "Gabriel Classic" line is gas filled, but "tuned" to behave like the old oil filled OEM shocks. (for a comfortable ride- even on rough roads)

The issue is if you search for "gas shocks VW beetle" you will end up looking at mostly "performance" shocks. "Performance" and "Ride comfort" are not usually synonymous with each other (but not mutually exclusive either).

Oil vs Gas filled is less important (although gas are much less prone to losing their damping during rapid 'pistoning'-i.e. off road/washboard surfaces)

The "firmness" (valving) of the shock is what to really focus on to match to your driving intentions/style.

Choose based on your intended use of your car. If you would like to cruise the roads and have a smooth ride (not feel little bumps/cracks in the road), the key is to get shocks with less 'aggressive' valving.

If you intend to do offroading, you'll need 'firmer' shocks (shocks with more 'aggressive' valving).

If you jump the humps through the intersections (like TDCTDI) then you need shocks which can handle that SAFELY. You'll need high quality performance shocks. (TDCTDI, love your Ghiapet stories man :D )

If you want the bug to 'hug the corners' and 'stick like glue' to the road, you'll need firmer shocks.

If you don't intend on taking the corners at "Max G-force" you can consider 'softer' valved shocks.

If the roads you will be driving are silky smooth, you won't notice much difference.

If you will be driving on 'imperfect' roads, you may want to bias your decision towards comfort vs performance/handling.

The trouble/confusion lies in that gas shocks began their entry into the 'general public' as Performance shocks, because they could handle the rapid cycling required and could be 'tuned' to high pressure valving vs older oil filled style.

So to most people Gas shocks = performance shocks = firm shocks = harsh ride.

Mickey,

Focus on the intended use which the manufacturer states and match that up to your intended use.

If the description says " driving comfort" or "ride quality", the shocks will focus on passenger comfort and be perceived as 'softer'
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=9595&cc=1368851&jsn=387

If the description says " handling performance" or "performance upgrade" they will be perceived as 'firmer' riding vs OEM.
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=6603056&cc=1368851&jsn=413

Read up from the manufacturer on any parts you intend to purchase, is my best advice.

....and buy quality parts. Not cheap junk.

Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:49 am

AlmostHeavenWV_VW wrote: Gas shocks are not nearly as prone to this cavitation effect(since they have no oil to cavitate)

Just to be clear, gas shocks, and high pressure gas shocks do have oil in them. The high pressure gas is used to keep pressure on the oil to reduce/eliminate the separation of air from the oil during a decompression stroke.

AlmostHeavenWV_VW wrote: (TDCTDI, love your Ghiapet stories man :D )

Last Wednesday, with the intent of jumping some railroad tracks, I passed (Safely & legally.) a guy in a Ford Focus before my lane dropped, this irritated him & he decided to give chase, after sticking the landing, I watched with great amusement as he shattered his oil pan & deployed the airbags upon striking the tracks. If only I had the GoPro on. ](*,) :lol: