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Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:11 am

I thought Elring made the best hub seals, so I bought them instead of using the Febi ones I already had. However, upon inspection it seems to me that the Febi look like the better seals. I’ve done a short video, let me know what you guys think!

Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:12 am

Mmmm....meh.

I think a lot of what you are looking at and comparing to is either not significant or there may be a little more research needed.

In my opinion neither Febi or Elring are the kings of seals. They both have made great parts and poor parts over the years.

First....the shiny rubber thing. In a molded part.....the shinier the part, the more highly polished (and therefore generally more accurate) the mold is. This may or may not have bearing on what the material is.
I think seal material IS important....and not nust what I think.....it IS impkrtant. But very few owners actually know or care to find out and buy their seals by price, word of mouth reputation or at best by past experience.
If you want to know or are in doubt.....almost all seal manufacturers have their catalogs online now. Pull all the numbers you can find.....and go catalog digging. It has more information on seal design, tolerance and material than you can ever imagine.

The amount of material here or there....like the seal lips. Personally....except in the case of front main seals.....I am not just out looking for what came originally on a 45 year old shaft seal. There are hundreds of not thousands of improved seal designs for dvery application that has ever been fielded. A lot of these over the decades have come about to work hand in hand with newer and better materials and molding methods.

But....some of the newer and older seal cross section designs are also designed for certain attributes at certain shaft speeds, levels of misalignment, temp ranges, pressure or no pressure, oil or grease.....or a specific oil or grease type.

I have also found that seal manufacturers have a wide range of seal lip styles, hose spring tension and design etc....for every seal size they make. In their mind.....automotive application aside.....its just a shaft seal.

Over the years....I have bought rear wheel seals from the same manufacturer at the same time out of the same box in the same shop with the same part number.....and had them come out of the box with the same size but very different seal profiles.

So.....if you must have what cane stock....take an old one.....slice it in half.....go on line and look in the seal profile page of the manufacturer you are thinking if using and find the series that looks the closest and lists applications that match yours. Look at the materials too.

Write those numbers down....and go to a bearing and seal dealer that sells that brand and just order them. Just my 2 cents. Ray

Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:33 am

Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:46 am

I have used both with excellent results. You could put one brand on each side, and report back in 50,000 miles with your findings. :P

A good grease like Valvoline’s Full or Semi-Synthetic in clean bearings is most important here. (Yes, even new bearings require thorough cleaning before grease-packing and installation.) Most auto parts stores are getting better about stocking those. If you can’t get them, try Amazon. If you still can’t get them, look for a NGLI rating of 2, and a drop point of at least 500*f.

Good luck,
Robbie

Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:48 am

asiab3 wrote: I have used both with excellent results. You could put one brand on each side, and report back in 50,000 miles with your findings. :P

A good grease like Valvoline’s Full or Semi-Synthetic in clean bearings is most important here. (Yes, even new bearings require thorough cleaning before grease-packing and installation.) Most auto parts stores are getting better about stocking those. If you can’t get them, try Amazon. If you still can’t get them, look for a NGLI rating of at least 2, and a drop point of at least 500*f.

Good luck,
Robbie

Mmmmm.....no. For this application you are not looking for an NLGI rating of "minimum" of 2. You are looking for 2.....only.

A rating of 3 would be too stiff for cold weather use in bearings this small. You need to look up the ratings of the grease.....and the ND rating of your bearing size and type at temperature. The ND rating is the speed factor. It is bore diameter X rpm at temperature.

This is a decent article that explains it well.

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/798/grease-selection

In some really cold areas one might get away with an NLGI 1. Ray

Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:21 am

raygreenwood wrote:
In some really cold areas one might get away with an NLGI 1. Ray

I have used NLGI 1 Moly grease for many purposes over the years. Figuring because it is thinner it will flow better thus guarantying that the bearings stay well lubricated year around.

Don't have a local supplier that stock it at this point in time.

Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:45 am

Wildthings wrote: raygreenwood wrote:
In some really cold areas one might get away with an NLGI 1. Ray

I have used NLGI 1 Moly grease for many purposes over the years. Figuring because it is thinner it will flow better thus guarantying that the bearings stay well lubricated year around.

Don't have a local supplier that stock it at this point in time.

If you can find the ASTM four ball tests result of a given lubricant that will tell you more about its ability to protect than the thickness or thinness.

Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:07 am

SGKent wrote: Wildthings wrote: raygreenwood wrote:
In some really cold areas one might get away with an NLGI 1. Ray

I have used NLGI 1 Moly grease for many purposes over the years. Figuring because it is thinner it will flow better thus guarantying that the bearings stay well lubricated year around.

Don't have a local supplier that stock it at this point in time.

If you can find the ASTM four ball tests result of a given lubricant that will tell you more about its ability to protect than the thickness or thinness.

The ability of a lubricant to flow and thus replenish the grease that is actually doing the work in the bearing is important. If is common to find a bearing that is nearly dry of grease, because the grease the bearing cavity is packed with is to thick to flow.

Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:42 am

Thanks for the correction Ray. I’ve only witnessed a blued spindle and bearing combo from heat damage on a car that had VERY thin wheel bearing grease.

With the Valvoline synthetics I mentioned, I have over 100k on my front wheel bearings. When they get cleaned and repacked every 30k, they look brand new, with no gritty feel, excess slop, or discoloration.

What would your tests be to determine if grease is too thick to get into the bearing rollers/balls properly? How would you know if it is flowing correctly when heated up in operation?

Robbie

Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:54 am

asiab3 wrote: Thanks for the correction Ray. I’ve only witnessed a blued spindle and bearing combo from heat damage on a car that had VERY thin wheel bearing grease.

With the Valvoline synthetics I mentioned, I have over 100k on my front wheel bearings. When they get cleaned and repacked every 30k, they look brand new, with no gritty feel, excess slop, or discoloration.

What would your tests be to determine if grease is too thick to get into the bearing rollers/balls properly? How would you know if it is flowing correctly when heated up in operation?

Robbie

The ASTM test is to spin 4 ball bearings at higher and higher speed until they weld together. (1 sitting on top of 3). They mark the speed the ball bearings begin to show wear and when they fail. If the lubricant has an ASTM test mark on it then the test was performed. If you have ever let a bucket of grease sit in a hot garage or shed you know that oil comes out of it and forms on the top. I don't think just choosing a grease based on a thinness is a valid way to pick a grease. If that were true then no one would use grease, they would use oil. That said, VW published what greases were to be used on what bearings. What you are using Robbie is a good grease. I went a half million miles in my 1971 bus just changing the bearings and races once on GP, not because they failed. I used either Valvoline, Pennzoil, or Castrol greases as specified when cleaning and repacking.

Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:09 pm

I have my methods/products, and I stick to them because they work in practice. Of course, there are things I don’t post on the internet, lest the flame wars begin... But wheel bearings work too hard to casually skimp on!

Robbie

Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:20 pm

SGKent wrote: Wildthings wrote: raygreenwood wrote:
In some really cold areas one might get away with an NLGI 1. Ray

I have used NLGI 1 Moly grease for many purposes over the years. Figuring because it is thinner it will flow better thus guarantying that the bearings stay well lubricated year around.

Don't have a local supplier that stock it at this point in time.

If you can find the ASTM four ball tests result of a given lubricant that will tell you more about its ability to protect than the thickness or thinness.

Only partially true.

Thickness or thinness is not a direct correlation to an NLGI rating. This is because all but a very few greases are thixotropic to some percentage (shear thinning). Likewise....being thick or thin can have little to no bearing on the ability to have a good four ball rating.

You will notice that NLGI charts refer to greases not as thicker or thinner ir higher or lower viscosity....but as "stiffer" or less stiff. This is because virtually all of them change stiffness when "worked"....which is why part of the NLGI testing is the "worked penetration" test.

And.....the ASTM four ball test is NOT the only test used when deciding what NLGI category a grease fits into.

Robbie to answer your question....how do you tell if sometjing is too thick or thin? For virtually everything we do in a VW....with a bearing diameter of 3" or less.....the vast majority of NLGI 3....will be far stiffer than needed in cold weather usage. Its not that it will not warm up and flow.....just thst it may take a LONG time....compared to an NLGI 2.

So if you live in New England and are driving 12 miles to work.....never gettting much above 40 mph on snow.....your bearing grease may never flow right. However.....anywjere west of the Mississippi....you may never have an issue with it.

And....NLGI # has absolutely nothing to say about grease quality. So having a higher NLGI # does not mean its better grease at all.

And...its not heat that first thins grease to flow point. Ite shear force. One thing that does "generally" hold true.....as NLGI numbers decrease.....shear thinning ability increases. This is why you see greases like John Deere corn head grease being used in steering boxes. Its an NLGI 0 or 00. At room temp its the same consistency as NLGI 2. Squeeze it between your ingers and it instantly turns into a 200+ weight gear oil gel.
Ray

Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:52 pm

Oh...forgot to add. How to tell what works?

The only places I have found wheel bearing grease choice to be really critical.....are in places like North Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas....and probably any states that have the same over characteristics.
In these states we can commonly be in the "teens" at night and back into the 40s-50s during the day in winter....and in 90s and 100s in the summer....and they are wide flat states with many miles of high speed highway driving.

I had problems with basic common greases living in Oklahoma. Usually they either got too hot and did not have accurate drop points.....or when I switched to more fibrous, tackier, stiffer greases they would fail in the winter. Almost always the rear bearings and not the fronts because discs get more heat.

This was type 1, type 3 and type 4 cars.

So I started looking for greases with a true high temp drop point and a creamier less stiff consistency. When I moved to Dallas....somewhat the same issues...and got to talk to a handful of petroleum engineers from University of Oklahoma. They suggested a test of spreading it onto a plate and heating the plate ...not to drop point....but first slump point.....where instead of turning to a semi-liquid to flow.....it drops SOME oc its stiffness.

But I had to find out what temp I cared about. So I did some temp measuring tests in the fall living in Dallas. Typically in traffic at 45+ speeds....in 40 degree temp....best bearing housing temp might be 150°F. Did a few hot plate tests.

I eventually started using Mystic JT-6. Best wheel bearing grease I have found for wide range weather. Ray

Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:15 pm

thanks Ray. Said kindly --You be the grease man :) Tell me, what do they put on pigs to make them slippery on a hot day at the fair? :) This one has an attitude.

c/o Montreal news

Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:39 pm

Well that was a slight tangent. I haven't yet reached the point of selecting the grease, but I'm glad to have some input. Does anybody have any opinion about which of these two seals I should use, based on the features I pointed out?

Bentley specifies molybdenum for the CV joints and multi-purpose grease for the wheel bearings. I assumed they did this for a good reason, but is it now the consensus that molybdenum grease is more appropriate for the wheel bearings too? I'm based in the UK and hope to tour Europe, so typical temperatures can range from -10deg celius to 35deg celcius throughout the year.

Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:57 pm

Ben Middleton wrote: Well that was a slight tangent. I haven't yet reached the point of selecting the grease, but I'm glad to have some input. Does anybody have any opinion about which of these two seals I should use, based on the features I pointed out?

Bentley specifies molybdenum for the CV joints and multi-purpose grease for the wheel bearings. I assumed they did this for a good reason, but is it now the consensus that molybdenum grease is more appropriate for the wheel bearings too? I'm based in the UK and hope to tour Europe, so typical temperatures can range from -10deg celius to 35deg celcius throughout the year.

Either seal will be fine. Keep the others as spares for the next time. As to grease, I look at the owner's manual and you won't be far off target. Since you didn't state the year bus and it isn't in your avatar it is hard for me to look it up for you.

As to off topic - it keeps the boredom down. This forum is known for being off topic a little. Part of being a happy community I guess. And, over time you won't find a better set of people. Your questions were good ones. Keeps us on our toes. That said regardless how someone answers which seals to use they will be right.

Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:09 pm

SGKent wrote: asiab3 wrote: Thanks for the correction Ray. I’ve only witnessed a blued spindle and bearing combo from heat damage on a car that had VERY thin wheel bearing grease.

With the Valvoline synthetics I mentioned, I have over 100k on my front wheel bearings. When they get cleaned and repacked every 30k, they look brand new, with no gritty feel, excess slop, or discoloration.

What would your tests be to determine if grease is too thick to get into the bearing rollers/balls properly? How would you know if it is flowing correctly when heated up in operation?

Robbie

The ASTM test is to spin 4 ball bearings at higher and higher speed until they weld together. (1 sitting on top of 3). They mark the speed the ball bearings begin to show wear and when they fail. If the lubricant has an ASTM test mark on it then the test was performed. If you have ever let a bucket of grease sit in a hot garage or shed you know that oil comes out of it and forms on the top. I don't think just choosing a grease based on a thinness is a valid way to pick a grease. If that were true then no one would use grease, they would use oil. That said, VW published what greases were to be used on what bearings. What you are using Robbie is a good grease. I went a half million miles in my 1971 bus just changing the bearings and races once on GP, not because they failed. I used either Valvoline, Pennzoil, or Castrol greases as specified when cleaning and repacking.

Back during the seventies heavy truck mechanics were arguing over if they should remove the seals that separated the gear in the differential from the wheel bearings and run the bearing in oil instead of grease. Both sides had similar arguments to what are being presented here. Eventually the side that said it was better to run the bearing in oil verses maintaining the seal and continuing to grease them won out. l have no qualms about using a thinner grease if the bearing is not in an overly hot environment.

That the oil will come to the top of a bucket of grease while sitting says nothing about its ability to properly get the oil to the bearing when in use.

Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:20 pm

Wildthings wrote: SGKent wrote: asiab3 wrote: Thanks for the correction Ray. I’ve only witnessed a blued spindle and bearing combo from heat damage on a car that had VERY thin wheel bearing grease.

With the Valvoline synthetics I mentioned, I have over 100k on my front wheel bearings. When they get cleaned and repacked every 30k, they look brand new, with no gritty feel, excess slop, or discoloration.

What would your tests be to determine if grease is too thick to get into the bearing rollers/balls properly? How would you know if it is flowing correctly when heated up in operation?

Robbie

The ASTM test is to spin 4 ball bearings at higher and higher speed until they weld together. (1 sitting on top of 3). They mark the speed the ball bearings begin to show wear and when they fail. If the lubricant has an ASTM test mark on it then the test was performed. If you have ever let a bucket of grease sit in a hot garage or shed you know that oil comes out of it and forms on the top. I don't think just choosing a grease based on a thinness is a valid way to pick a grease. If that were true then no one would use grease, they would use oil. That said, VW published what greases were to be used on what bearings. What you are using Robbie is a good grease. I went a half million miles in my 1971 bus just changing the bearings and races once on GP, not because they failed. I used either Valvoline, Pennzoil, or Castrol greases as specified when cleaning and repacking.

Back during the seventies heavy truck mechanics were arguing over if they should remove the seals that separated the gear in the differential from the wheel bearings and run the bearing in oil instead of grease. Both sides had similar arguments to what are being presented here. Eventually the side that said it was better to run the bearing in oil verses maintaining the seal and continuing to grease them won out. l have no qualms about using a thinner grease if the bearing is not in an overly hot environment.

That the oil will come to the top of a bucket of grease while sitting says nothing about its ability to properly get the oil to the bearing when in use.

Kind of like.....a swingaxle! And those work just fine!

Really....with EP greases ....the active metallic ingredients.....are not much different than gear oils.

Ray

Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:26 pm

SGKent wrote: thanks Ray. Said kindly --You be the grease man :) Tell me, what do they put on pigs to make them slippery on a hot day at the fair? :) This one has an attitude.

c/o Montreal news

:lol: ....you asked....I laughed.....then thought....with 200 years of state and county fairs there HAS GOT TO BE.....a professional greased pig contest lube..... right?

Well....just looking at a few threads (yes...they are out there)......this would havd to be the most common. Not sure what NLGI # its close to....but......

But those always in the lookout for something more exotic than necessary......

:lol: :D
Ray

Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:41 pm

Ray - LMAO