TheSamba.com :: View topic - The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes

Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:27 am

^^^It would be fascinating to see all of the records including the tachograph discs from end of 1936 and from 1937.

Anyway, back to the topic.

I think it is important to take a closer look at the visual design cues of the very first cars. The February 1935 body design 3 (sketch 996) shows the basic lines that were transferred to the scale models. Some details are different such as the folds on the front end finishing just before the windscreen, the lack of middle ridge on the front hood, difference in the rear end lines and of course the presence of a rear window but everything else is almost the same. Noteworthy are the details of the front and rear lids being almost identical between the sketch, the scale models and the two full sized cars suggesting there is a linear connection between the three designs. Similarities between the two scale models and he bodies 1 and 2 are just as important demonstrating that those models were a direct precedent to the two full sized bodies.

I became so interested in the lines of bodies 1 and 2 that I decided to build a replica of one of the wood models from 1935. I thought this would be the bast way to explore and ultimately understand how this body was shaped. All the lines were were so different when compared to final shape of the Type 60.

Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:29 am

When we take a closer look at bodies 3 and 4 the basic lines are the same as bodies 1 and 2 but they feature a distinct reduction in the front lid for both cars and in the rear lid of body 3. This only can suggest a design evolution with a view to make the body stiffer. Interestingly roughly the same size of the lids was continued into the next W30 series making this a continuation of the design. Interesting to note at this stage; there was a series of photos made at the Porsche villa of car V3/3 (body 3) and the first of the W30 series. It must have been significant to have those two cars together in a photo-shoot. I think the significance was that car V3/3 was a direct ancestor to the W30 series by being an all steel construction and many of its design details being transferred to the W30.

Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:40 pm

I think the continuity on the designs (or flow, to use a more elegant word) is the key indeed. There are some cues on the design that are shared between the steel bodies (3 and 4) and the later W30 - I would say the oval lids (front and back), the "curvy top" windscreen and the slanted B pillar (not sure if I'm imagining it though). Would make more sense to have a linear set of designs, instead of jumping back and forth between clear design sets.

The shape of the lid maybe is the most obvious telltale, because I remember reading somewhere in the W30 topic that a "bigger" lid caused structural weakness - stands to reason that they started big and went small to work around the issue, at least until the final body. Before that tidbit of information that shape always baffled me - why design it like a submarine hatch? Well, turns out it was a temporary measure - they tried a normal lid before like sensible human beings...

I am trying to compile all the pictures I have into a timeline, but my current workload is hindering me a little. But for me now it is clear that your theories makes total sense with the design cues of each batch of prototypes - even if we take oddballs like type 32 (all of them) and type 12 into account. The progression of the designs is more clear now.

I understand that the original bodies were mounted on W30 chassis (chassii?) as the newer bodies were wrecked, right? That's why we have bodies 1 - 4 with new headlights and old plates (IIIA 0426 - 0428)?

BTW, nice model, Undis! Now your avatar picture makes total sense! How did you made it, resin?

Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:26 pm

Just a few more remarks on this subject.

The car with license plate IIIA-34993, which we are suggesting is the third body, is certainly "Wagen III" in terms of how it was referred to in the 1936 test. The "III" marks are clearly painted on the spare wheel of this car in one of the photos. This photo, showing details under the front lid, also reveals the hallmarks of an all-steel construction. The photo can be seen on page 81 of Barber.

We also have a photograph taken from under the front lid of body 1, showing the clear characteristics of a wood frame construction. The differences are very clear.

The endurance testing of the 3 official prototypes in 1936, and the associated measurements obtained, also showed that the body on car 3 was significantly lighter than those on cars 1 and 2.

Finally, I would also like to add that the FKFS performed significantly more testing on car 3, compared to cars 1 and 2. It was clearly the most significant benchmark to collect data from, before the final preparations for 1937.

Patrick

Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:32 pm

Here is the early photo of body 1 I referred to, showing some frame detail. Undis also posted this on page 1. Note the wood frame structure, which is very different to the all-metal body on the 3rd body (page 81 of Barber)

This is an interesting close up view of the interior, presumably of body 1. The car was no longer new when this photo was taken, with some repairs notable compared to earlier photos.

Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:51 am

Jack O'Neill wrote: I think the continuity on the designs (or flow, to use a more elegant word) is the key indeed. There are some cues on the design that are shared between the steel bodies (3 and 4) and the later W30 - I would say the oval lids (front and back), the "curvy top" windscreen and the slanted B pillar (not sure if I'm imagining it though). Would make more sense to have a linear set of designs, instead of jumping back and forth between clear design sets.

The shape of the lid maybe is the most obvious telltale, because I remember reading somewhere in the W30 topic that a "bigger" lid caused structural weakness - stands to reason that they started big and went small to work around the issue, at least until the final body. Before that tidbit of information that shape always baffled me - why design it like a submarine hatch? Well, turns out it was a temporary measure - they tried a normal lid before like sensible human beings...

I am trying to compile all the pictures I have into a timeline, but my current workload is hindering me a little. But for me now it is clear that your theories makes total sense with the design cues of each batch of prototypes - even if we take oddballs like type 32 (all of them) and type 12 into account. The progression of the designs is more clear now.

I understand that the original bodies were mounted on W30 chassis (chassii?) as the newer bodies were wrecked, right? That's why we have bodies 1 - 4 with new headlights and old plates (IIIA 0426 - 0428)?

BTW, nice model, Undis! Now your avatar picture makes total sense! How did you made it, resin?

Thanks Jack. The lack of flow between the early designs as presented by Barber were a source of numerous headaches fer me when I started researching this theme. I think the timeline presented in this thread provides a believable transition. As you can see all of the 4 bodies were constantly being undated including the headlights. All of them had the nose mounted lights replaced with units on top of the fenders. I wonder if this was done to see how such design treatment may look on the next generation W30 cars.

As for the model, have a look at my build thread here:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=716487

Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:58 am

IIIA-0426 wrote: Here is the early photo of body 1 I referred to, showing some frame detail. Undis also posted this on page 1. Note the wood frame structure, which is very different to the all-metal body on the 3rd body (page 81 of Barber)

This is an interesting close up view of the interior, presumably of body 1. The car was no longer new when this photo was taken, with some repairs notable compared to earlier photos.

That is body 1 for sure. Here is another version of the same photo and a matching photo of the same car seen from the front complete with the rather unsightly fender mounted headlights and plate IIIA-37010 from the W30 series. Photo taken at the Porsche factory Werk 1 Zuffenhausen. Note the VW38 (?) in the background. BTW the post-facelift headlights on body 1 were mounted little lower than on body 2.

Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:08 pm

Undis wrote:
As for the model, have a look at my build thread here:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=716487

I never noticed that we have a scale model section... All those years I just come back to the 1938-53 section exclusively. I missed the opportunity to post my build there :-/

Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:15 am

IIIA-0426 wrote:

Meanwhile, back at the Sindelfingen body shops.. (Front luggage and spare tire arrangement of MB 170H)

Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:13 pm

Meanwhile, back at the Sindelfingen body shops.. (Front luggage and spare tire arrangement of MB 170H)
I wonder how many people arrived at their hotel one evening, the find that all of their clothing smelt of petrol/gasoline?

Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:50 pm

still do, when they drive a pre 60 beetle... :D
awesome collection of info on the 35 prototypes! my head is spinning from all of that... :oops:

Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:00 am

Thanks allsidius!

As they say a picture speaks a thousand words. This cannot be a coincidence. (Photo comparison thanks to a follower and a contributor to my FB page).

Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:09 pm

Undis wrote: Thanks allsidius!

As they say a picture speaks a thousand words. This cannot be a coincidence. (Photo comparison thanks to a follower and a contributor to my FB page).

It looks like a Mercedes Benz 90 or 100H prototype.. A 3/4 scale version of the 170H.

And look at those rear side windows of the 170H, dead ringers for the V303 and subsequent beetles up to 1964 in my view.

Fri Jul 22, 2022 12:46 pm

Undis wrote: Another notable reference is found on page 61 of Barber’s book:
5th February 1936 Herbert Kaes joined the Porsche company and recorded in his diary:

Herbert Kaes wrote: “Started work at F. Porsche GmbH… Start driving two Volkswagens one with double piston two stroke, the other with twin cylinder four stroke air cooled engines … building three new Volkswagens one with four cylinder four stroke air cooled engine”.

Kaes is not saying if both were sedans or one was a sedan and the other a convertible? Barber interprets this as sedan and convertible. So why there is a discrepancy between what Ferry Porsche said and what Kaes said? I think that by February 1936 body 1 may had been already retired to the garage (joining body 2?) at the villa to be fitted to the V3 chassis. This means that by this time there were only 2 drivable cars left – a sedan and a convertible – most likely the later body 3 and convertible body 4 (refer to the two cars presented February 1936 in Berlin). Barber comments on this quote as if there were 5 cars at the time probably under the assumption that “building three new Volkswagens“ means having 3 full cars in the garage however this could mean anything. I believe there never were 5 cars but 3 sedans and the convertible making it 4 altogether.

Hello, I'm new here. I do also think that Body 1 was retired by early 1936 since it had a severe crash after heading into a tree. I suppose the car was stored, repaired and in the meanwhile got its front end updated as seen on page 3 of this topic.

Fri Jul 22, 2022 1:14 pm

Undis wrote: When discussing the early prototypes it's best to wipe the slate clean and start again.

The codes V1 and V2 have been traditionally assigned by Chris Barber and others to two cars - the first sedan and the convertible. According to this analysis such reasoning no longer fits. Throughout the research I had two possible scenarios in mind:

Scenario 1: These codes may have originally been assigned not to individual cars but to series of cars just like the code V3 for the three test cars of 1936 and the W30 thirty test cars from 1937. The V1 series would be the two wood-steel construction bodies (1 and 2) and the V2 series would be the all steel construction bodies (3 and 4). Upon further deliberations I have dismissed this theory.

Scenario 2: The first two bodies (1 and 2) may have been referred to only as Type 60 with perhaps an internal distinction such as Body A and Body B. As discussed earlier these two bodies were never meant to represent the construction of the new Volkswagen, just to demonstrate the general shape. With the completion of all-steel bodies 3 and 4 the codes V1 for the sedan and V2 for the convertible were created perhaps to distinguish them from the earlier versions or even more likely, from the later V3 series. These two cars were more significant as they were closer to the vision of the true Volkswagen. I feel this scenario is more likely.

It is important to note that the codes V1 and V2 seem to appear only later when referring to the earlier versions. The code V3 was used semi-officially during the testing at the end of 1936. An interesting family tree from the end of the war years is found on page 215 on Barber’s book showing the various Volkswagen models. The first model is recorded as V3. Model “zero” is then added by hand by Ghislaine Kaes as V1 and V2. Incidentally the thirty W30 cars have been completely forgotten! This is fascinating as it makes us think that even in those early years the Porsche team members did not necessarily get all the historical facts right.

Just a question : What happened between Oct/Nov '35 (when all 4 bodies were presumably completed) and the end of '36 when the test runs with body 1, 2 and 3 started (probably early in October '36) ??? Did Dr Porsche and his team already worked full time on the VW30? If yes, why wait so long to start the test runs ??? Did they just store the 4 bodies without driving them (yet, body 1 had a bad crash with a tree round Febr. '36 - see my previous post) ???

Tue Jul 26, 2022 11:15 pm

67 Heaven wrote:
Just a question : What happened between Oct/Nov '35 (when all 4 bodies were presumably completed) and the end of '36 when the test runs with body 1, 2 and 3 started (probably early in October '36) ??? Did Dr Porsche and his team already worked full time on the VW30? If yes, why wait so long to start the test runs ??? Did they just store the 4 bodies without driving them (yet, body 1 had a bad crash with a tree round Febr. '36 - see my previous post) ???

We already discussed this privately but I thought I'd post my answer here as well:

I just want to recap on the timeline of those early cars. As per the contract with RDA 3 bodies were ordered from Daimler Benz and presumably 3 matching chassis were to be built by Porsche with the help of Allgaier. The first 2 bodies had to be ready as soon as possible therefore they were done in the proven method using wood and steel. The first body was ready in July 1935, the second soon after. The third was to be all steel and was ready by October 1935. Meanwhile Porsche decided to build a fourth body – a convertible. So he had 4 bodies and 3 chassis. I think the most logical scenario is that car 1 remained a test bed for various experiments and cars 3 and 4 became representatives of the whole project. Body 2 had no chassis so it remained in storage.

Early on it became apparent that the first generation chassis was too fragile with its flimsy front suspension and the 3-speed transmission hanging off the frame forks. There was no point in building a fourth example and a total redesign was in order. So to answer your question I think in the time period October/November 1935 the two new cars (cars 3 and 4) were extensively shown off to the authorities while a new design of chassis was being worked on. I think it was car 3 that was presented to the RDA on 31 October 1935.

The chassis question I find rather confusing as there should have been a new version available by the end of 1935 with some evidence that it may have happened only in January 1936 but a final version by end of March 1936. However according to Barber, the three new V3 chassis were only available end of June 1936. This makes me think that there were interim designs between the first generation chassis and the V3 design. Viewing photos from the time and comparing them to the information available, it’s evident that car 1 was fitted with one of those chassis as there is a photo of it where it no longer has the early 17 inch rims with hubcaps but has the later 16 inch rims with no hubcaps (later fitted with chrome axle caps) thus suggesting it had a new style of chassis fitted. The photo is from before the crash. I suggest the crash happened likely around May (give or take a month).

Car 1 was already out of the equation (crashed) by June when the new V3 chassis were ready but I strongly doubt the interim chassis were ready before March. Also when examining the background of the crash photos the trees are covered in leaves thus ruling out February or even March. Also car 1 has the plate IIIA 0426 in the pre-crash photo and at the crash. This plate was previously used on car 3 and last seen in the famous photos from Easter 1936, so about April. My suggestion is that car 3 was retired after the Black Forest trip to undergo its facelift to become the V3/3. It was completed end of June 1936. That is why I’m thinking the crash of car 1 happened at around May.

There seems to be an empty period in 1936 right up to when the official RTA tests started in October 1936. However examining Barber’s book it appears that there were plenty of tests being conducted by the team and of course the design work for the W30 cars was in full swing. Barber states that already after July 1935 discussions were started with Ambi Budd to create an all-steel body for the Volkswagen. Barber mentions this all through the first chapters of the book describing meetings where discussions and even arguments took place between Porsche, RDA, Daimler Benz and Ambi Budd. He alludes these discussions to the creation of the V3/3 which he wrongly presumed was built new in 1936. I believe the lengthy discussions were to do with the W30. We know that when the final and official testing of the V3s started in November 1936, the first of the W30s was already underway to completion.

Tue Jul 26, 2022 11:37 pm

Thanks to 67 Heaven who pointed out my mistake on page 1 of this thread. This car later became the V3/1 not V3/2. Chris Barber in his book had these two cars mixed up mainly because he believed all three cars were built new in 1936 and he was going by the sequence in which the cars were completed. Undis wrote:

Going by the Continental Ballon tyre in the front strapped down with a leather belt this is the front trunk area of the very first car before the body was reused to become the V3/1. Later the spare wheel was bolted to a mount attached to the chassis frame-head.

Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:04 pm

So Undis, according to your theory, which car are we seeing at the right of this photo, body No. 1? That would appear to make sense,
if Prof. and Jr. were trying to show the progression from the first prototype.

It also appears to be related to this photo, which may have been taken the same day.

More support for your theory?

Sun Aug 21, 2022 10:34 pm

Blue Baron wrote: So Undis, according to your theory, which car are we seeing at the right of this photo, body No. 1? That would appear to make sense,
if Prof. and Jr. were trying to show the progression from the first prototype.
It also appears to be related to this photo, which may have been taken the same day.
More support for your theory?

You are right. That is body 1. I have an uncropped version of this same photo and you can see the headlight. It is the same as in the lower photo you posted. Body 2 had its relocated headlights installed slightly higher in an almost identical way to the W30.

I think it does support my theory. Porsche did like to arrange the cars to show evolution of the design. The photo session with the first body of the W30 and the V3/3 is another example. Myself and Patrick worked on the theory for quite some time and we tested it from several angles. The timeline that I have presented here makes the best sense. Also, if you read the Barber's book with this theory in mind, you can actually see it. The book is full of clues but ironically Barber did not recognize them in his research.

Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:51 pm

This popped up today on FB and might be interesting. Mercedes prototype 120H