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Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:13 am

Hi Bus people... another post (I'm sorry!)...

1973 VW Bus with an unoriginal 1800cc motor with hydraulic Mahle lifters.

Currently, it has a 4-Speed manual transmission with reverse in the lower left.

When I put the Bus away in storage back in 2011, it ran pretty well... but the transmission was always a huge problem. The shift from 1st to 2nd took significant skill. I can only assume this is because the synchros were shot. Getting it into first gear was no problem, but in the shift from first to second, I'd have to carefully... ever so carefully feather it into 2nd gear. If I wasn't doing it with absolute grace, I'd get lots of grinding and I'd have to try again.

I replaced the gate, ball, cage, all the bushings and every little piece of linkage from the shifter all the way back to the transmission. It was no longer loose or sloppy, but still did what it did.

So, question I have is... that's probably the synchros, correct? (or does it not even have synchros)? Is this something I can easily get a rebuild kit for?

Second question... what aftermarket options do I have? I'm not looking to steal Porsche parts, but I would like something that will permit me to have a bit more usability on modern streets. Like, if I want to do 65 on the highway. Is there an aftermarket 5-speed that I can purchase? I'd like to have my wife drive the Bus, but she absolutely refuses the way it is now.

Thanks!!!

Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:52 am

Your transmission likely got filled with good old fashion stinky GL-5 oil somewhere along with way which will have damaged the synchronizers even if it was only in the gearbox for a day or two. I have not found that this damage is repairable without tearing into the box. Going to a very thin gear oil will help, but not totally alleviate the shifting problems caused by the GL-5 oil.

I ran an 1800 engine for 250Kmiles hooked to a 091 transmission out of a '76 T-2 and had few qualms about running 75 mph for hours on end. With the engine being well balanced and the cam letting it breath well at 4000 rpms, the setup was a joy to drive.

Most people don't do their own internal work in these boxes.

Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:36 am

About the only “bolt in” options are a little later 1975 “5 rib” that would have a 4.86 ring & pinion, or like mentioned the 76-79 “6 rib” that would have a 4.57 r&p. The 76-79 trans are a little longer, and use a different starter, but the earlier belhousings can be used to keep the early starter. A factory 73 trans would have a 5.37, or replacement 5.42. These are going to have outright prices ranging from $1500-$2500.

If you have the original engine, you more than likely have the original transaxle. If you replaced “everything” from the shifter to the trans, your issue with why the trans isn’t shifting is because it was driven around with all these things worn out. GL5 gear oil does nothing to synchronizers unless it reaches 250+ degrees. If your trans gear oil has gotten to 250 degrees, you have greater issues than damaged syncros.

Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:30 pm

Wildthings wrote: Your transmission likely got filled with good old fashion stinky GL-5 oil somewhere along with way which will have damaged the synchronizers even if it was only in the gearbox for a day or two.

I ran an 1800 engine for 250Kmiles hooked to a 091 transmission out of a '76 T-2 and had few qualms about running 75 mph for hours on end. With the engine being well balanced and the cam letting it breath well at 4000 rpms, the setup was a joy to drive.

Oh wow, ok... yeah, 75mph is more than what I'm looking for... and it sounds like your Bus was running *awesome*. Is there a particular place you guys recommend getting this from? Is there a very reputable shop that everyone goes to?

My engine apparently came from GEX, and I've not heard anything great about them.

[email protected] wrote: About the only “bolt in” options are a little later 1975 “5 rib” that would have a 4.86 ring & pinion, or like mentioned the 76-79 “6 rib” that would have a 4.57 r&p. The 76-79 trans are a little longer, and use a different starter, but the earlier belhousings can be used to keep the early starter. A factory 73 trans would have a 5.37, or replacement 5.42. These are going to have outright prices ranging from $1500-$2500.

If you have the original engine, you more than likely have the original transaxle. If you replaced “everything” from the shifter to the trans, your issue with why the trans isn’t shifting is because it was driven around with all these things worn out. GL5 gear oil does nothing to synchronizers unless it reaches 250+ degrees. If your trans gear oil has gotten to 250 degrees, you have greater issues than damaged syncros.

Thank you so much for this information.

Ok... so the later Bus transmissions have the lower gear ratio, IE: better for highway driving. How is the gearing for the individual gears? Is there any substantial difference between the years, or only the final drive? It would seem something with a strong 2nd gear would be pretty useful since I'd likely spend most of my time in that gear in normal traffic.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure. I'm embarrassed to admit but I never actually checked the oil in the transmission. The bus is in storage, where it's been for 8 years, but in the 9 years I've owned it, I'd only driven it maybe 3,000 miles. It was really just back and forth to the car shows, occasionally to the beach, and that's it. So I never replaced the oil. The Bus needed SO much else when I got it. It literally was just a painted shell with an engine, transmission, and wheels on it. There was no interior, no glass, no lights, and almost no wiring left. The Bus was definitely abused before I got it.

Sounds crazy that I wouldn't mess with the transmission, but it was one of the earlier project cars I owned, and I was more focused on just getting it running and making it safe.

Thank you again for this info! Is there any particular shop you guys recommend to buy a rebuilt transmission from?

Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:02 pm

The later trans ring and pinions are lower numerically, but are actually a higher gear ratio. The 1st-4th ratios are pretty close. The 1sts between the 3 are 3.80-3.78, 2nds are all 2.06, 3rds are 1.23-1.26, and 4ths are .82-.85-.88-.89.

Another option would be to get your trans rebuilt with a higher ratio r&p. The 4.86 from the 75 trans can be used as a direct replacement if you are able to find a good used one. Weddle used to make a lesser expensive sportsman 4.57 r&p that could be used in your early trans, but I think they have been discontinued in favor of the more expensive racing r&p.

As far as who to get the trans from, I’d try and support someone local. They’re the ones keeping the hobby alive in your area, and you may be able to save some money from being able to pick up the trans instead of having it shipped. If you can’t find/trust anyone local, the shop I used to work at in Columbiana Ohio called Jims Custom VW’s could fix you up. A search in the Performance section of the site can give you some other sources as well.

Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:08 pm

[email protected] wrote: The later trans ring and pinions are lower numerically, but are actually a higher gear ratio. The 1st-4th ratios are pretty close. The 1sts between the 3 are 3.80-3.78, 2nds are all 2.06, 3rds are 1.23-1.26, and 4ths are .82-.85-.88-.89.

Another option would be to get your trans rebuilt with a higher ratio r&p. The 4.86 from the 75 trans can be used as a direct replacement if you are able to find a good used one. Weddle used to make a lesser expensive sportsman 4.57 r&p that could be used in your early trans, but I think they have been discontinued in favor of the more expensive racing r&p.

As far as who to get the trans from, I’d try and support someone local. They’re the ones keeping the hobby alive in your area, and you may be able to save some money from being able to pick up the trans instead of having it shipped. If you can’t find/trust anyone local, the shop I used to work at in Columbiana Ohio called Jims Custom VW’s could fix you up. A search in the Performance section of the site can give you some other sources as well.

Thank you! I appreciate that! I'll look around locally. Maybe I will get it rebuilt. It could be the original transmission too... and if it is, might as well keep it with the Bus. I know the engine isn't original, but no reason to swap out the transmission if I can rebuild it.

Thanks!!!

Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:45 pm

Once again, I wouldn’t go this direction.

Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:26 am

aeromech wrote: Once again, I wouldn’t go this direction.

Would you care to elaborate for those that missed the first oppositions? Are you saying the ratios will be too high? Are you speaking from experience, or theory? Having just recently gotten a 71 Westy, I’m much more familiar with the characteristics/changeovers of Type 1 stuff, but weren’t the 1800’s used with the 4.86 until 76 when they changed over to the 2000’s with the 4.57? The op hasn’t elaborated on what type of Bus they have. If it is a camper with a lot of extra weight, then I could see maybe not going the 4.57 route. I built a 4.12 Type 1 trans for a straight axle lowering conversion for a friends 66 non-camper Bus, and his Type 1 dual carb’d 1776 pulled it around without any issue of being under powered/overheating. The manuals in the technical section list Deluxe 66’s at 2535lbs., and 73’s at 2922lbs. I wouldn’t see why if a mild 1776 with 80hp could pull 2535 around with a 4.12 r&p on a 25 inch tire, a 73 with 63hp could pull around 2922 with at least with a 4.86 on a 24 inch tire.

Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:21 am

82-T/A wrote: but I would like something that will permit me to have a bit more usability on modern streets. Like, if I want to do 65 on the highway. Is there an aftermarket 5-speed that I can purchase? I'd like to have my wife drive the Bus, but she absolutely refuses the way it is now.

a healthy bus with a stock trans is just fine. they're suppose to sound like your revving the piss out of it to keep the fan speed up. the only way I recommend a re-gear is if you have a powerful enough engine to justify it....like 175+ hp. even then, its a combination of parts to make it all survive

the only way I would consider a re-gear is if you're doing a engine swap. map out the donor cars rpm's at a given speed and match it to the engine. I wouldn't go swapping ratios based on "I want 2500 rpms at 70" because what you'll find is the second you encounter a 1% grade you won't have the power to pull it. again, it's all in the combo

Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:56 am

400,000 miles with a stock 1600 dual port and a stock 002 trans. 65 mph sustained no problem. Top speed about 80 - 85 mph, and unstable. When the trans wore out I let someone talk me in to a later trans gearing which was a huge mistake. Grades that I could climb almost all the way in 4th ended up gearing down to 3rd and going slower. Frankly if you bus is running right and tuned properly, and you are still dis-satisfied it is probably not as tuned as you think it is.

Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:12 am

[email protected] wrote:
If you have the original engine, you more than likely have the original transaxle. If you replaced “everything” from the shifter to the trans, your issue with why the trans isn’t shifting is because it was driven around with all these things worn out. GL5 gear oil does nothing to synchronizers unless it reaches 250+ degrees. If your trans gear oil has gotten to 250 degrees, you have greater issues than damaged syncros.

My experience is it just takes minutes at ambient, with the damage showing itself on the first shift or two. Drain it out the next day and put the right oil back in and the damage is still there, this is in no way about wear. Don't know what GL-5 oil it does, put presumably it alters the coating on the synchronizers or something. There is a reason why most oil manufactures sell GL-4 oil for use in synchronized transmissions and transaxles.

Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:47 pm

it soaks into the moly on the syncros. Some buses only have one or two gears that are moly coated, some have all four. Depends what the factory was building with at the time. Once moly syncros are coated with GL5, I am told by many people who build trans that the damage is done. I think Big Bore Mike told me he built one for a guy for a buggy, The guy wanted all moly synchos. Mike said he put GL4 in it and it ran perfect. The guy drained it after break in and put GL5 in it. Mike had to rebuild it - guy couldn't shift after that. He told me that he tried flushing the trans with GL4 several times but the damage was done. Apparently the all brass synchros are Ok with it (other than the minor sulfur attack in GL5 on the yellow metal and mag in the trans case).

Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:49 pm

Yes, you're going to need internal transmission work IF you can say without a fraction of a doubt, under oath, that your reverse lockout plate was perfectly adjusted according to the factory service manuals. If you did not perfectly adjust the reverse lockout plate after doing work with bushings, couplers, or nosecone parts, you may be in for an easy fix.

If you can't do 65mph with an 1800 Type 4 with ANY VW transaxle ratio, I'm going to wager you have an engine tune problem. Any of the stock carbs or injections should be able to hold that easy on any pavement in Florida.

Good luck
Robbie

Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:40 pm

SGKent wrote: .....with a stock 1600 dual port and a stock 002 trans. 65 mph sustained no problem. Top speed about 80 - 85 mph, and unstable. When the trans wore out I let someone talk me in to a later trans gearing which was a huge mistake......

Except the op is talking about an 1800 with dual carbs, and greater cylinder head cooling efficiency.

asiab3 wrote: If you can't do 65mph with an 1800 Type 4 with ANY VW transaxle ratio, I'm going to wager you have an engine tune problem. Any of the stock carbs or injections should be able to hold that easy on any pavement in Florida.

Kinda what I was thinking. I’d say any BUS r&p. Maybe not a 3.88 of a Beetle/Ghia.

A stock 5.38 r&p x .82 4th with a 24 inch tire gets you 64.8mph at 4K rpm. A stock trans with a 4.86 would actually have an .89 4th, but if it had an .82, 64.5mph would happen at 3600 rpm. The 4.57 trans had .85’s, and .88’s as the most common 4ths., but again if using an .82 4th you would get 64.8mph at 3400rpm. It’s not as if you’re trying to run 80mph at 2000 rpm. We’re talking a 600 rpm difference. The VW engineers felt 100hp was enough to use a 4.57, not 175hp.

Not trying to get this thread locked because of an oil pissing match, but you guys must be using some cheap ass ching-chong coated syncros if you’re having trouble with GL5. I daily drive a Beetle in the Summer with a coated OEM VW syncro with Lucas GL5 without ANY shifting issues.

Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:35 pm

[email protected] wrote: SGKent wrote: .....with a stock 1600 dual port and a stock 002 trans. 65 mph sustained no problem. Top speed about 80 - 85 mph, and unstable. When the trans wore out I let someone talk me in to a later trans gearing which was a huge mistake......

Except the op is talking about an 1800 with dual carbs, and greater cylinder head cooling efficiency.

asiab3 wrote: If you can't do 65mph with an 1800 Type 4 with ANY VW transaxle ratio, I'm going to wager you have an engine tune problem. Any of the stock carbs or injections should be able to hold that easy on any pavement in Florida.

Kinda what I was thinking. I’d say any BUS r&p. Maybe not a 3.88 of a Beetle/Ghia.

A stock 5.38 r&p x .82 4th with a 24 inch tire gets you 64.8mph at 4K rpm. A stock trans with a 4.86 would actually have an .89 4th, but if it had an .82, 64.5mph would happen at 3600 rpm. The 4.57 trans had .85’s, and .88’s as the most common 4ths., but again if using an .82 4th you would get 64.8mph at 3400rpm. It’s not as if you’re trying to run 80mph at 2000 rpm. We’re talking a 600 rpm difference. The VW engineers felt 100hp was enough to use a 4.57, not 175hp.

Not trying to get this thread locked because of an oil pissing match, but you guys must be using some cheap ass ching-chong coated syncros if you’re having trouble with GL5. I daily drive a Beetle in the Summer with a coated OEM VW syncro with Lucas GL5 without ANY shifting issues.

First I would never use a Lucas oil product myself but that said...

https://weddleindustries.com/products/1000173/1000995

https://weddleindustries.com/products/1000173/1006137