TheSamba.com :: View topic - 1Z TDI Westy

Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:38 pm

That sticky tar tape used on those harnesses is the worst.

Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:12 am

Zeitgeist 13 wrote: That sticky tar tape used on those harnesses is the worst.

this passat one seemed to only have the basic thin flexible electrical tape.

but i know which one you mean, the alh harness i stripped when we thought we were going that direction with the swap, that one was disgusting :shock:

quick "before" shot of the harness

my thinking is to depin the various emissions related pieces from the main connector, and to stub and dead-end the cruise and unused pedal inputs on a separate couple of connectors near the main 68pin.
i wont be using them, but ill leave those handy for someone else in the future

Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:56 pm

lots of parts trickling in, still waiting for a few big things but should have the motor wrapped up in the next few weeks... then onto the van side of the swap!

weve got a concert and camping in the gorge id like to take the van to mid summer, so shooting for a running and fully tested van before that....

ecu is now chipped. like stepping back in time, replacing actual chips... :lol:

made my pinning list and additional connector pin descriptions.
the pic is a little out of date, but the wiring harness is thinned, pulled pins out for the emissions pieces i wont be using, and stubbed most everything else that wont be used now but could be in the future (cruise control related mostly), into several other connectors which ill mate with blank plugs.

theres going to be one breakout for the tps run to the front, and another for dash lights. will make the rest of those runs once the wiring is in the van

started in on the turbo, managed to coax both the turbine and compressor housings apart (pics are kind of lagging progress on that front) but want to get it all taken down so i can figure out which rebuild kit i need. seems to be some mixed opinions whether the generic k03 kits will fit this tdi hybrid setup. we'll see...

took a lot of heat and gentle persuasion to get the turbine housing off. will have pics of that next time.

front side of the engine is getting close, i should have the pump and injectors back from service next week then can wrap the timing belt and the rest of the front.
the stock oil warmer delete is done, and used a new brickwerks top flange to eliminate the tiny bleed nipple from the stock 1Z flange, which would normally run to the fwd overflow bottle.

pd150 intake manifold should be coming from the uk any day now, and once the turbo is done i have everything else for the hot side of the motor. still need to drill and tap the JX manifold for an egt probe but thatll be easy

test tilt at around 50deg, leaned waay over :lol:

Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:12 pm

looking good! 8)

I don't know if it's an issue with the 1Z, but my AHU had a strange issue until I wired up cruise control. On every startup, when you first pressed the accelerator pedal, it would fall flat on its face. Second press of the pedal and everything is normal until the next start up. Turns out this was related to cruise control not being wired up.

I definitely suggest wiring it up, even if the 1Z ECU doesn't have the same issue. The vanagon cruise stalks are hard to find or $$$ - I used a mk1 stalk without any trouble. It's a little bit shorter, but that's the only difference.

AHU cruise thread on tdiclub: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=193855

Sorry if this isn't relevant with the 1Z but I wanted to mention it just in case!

Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:31 pm

Very well organized and tidy work habits. I love seeing someone working like this, parts and tools laid out on a clean bench. Im a bit of a tornado when it comes to tackling certain projects whether its mechanical or more likely, something made out of wood. Your approach looks methodical and well planned out. Many of us could benefit from this type of approach. Keep up the good work!

Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:37 am

I'll second the advice to add/use cruise control.

I guess I don't know/remember for sure, but I think the ECU still wants a speed input and brake light input to work correctly and be happy. Perhaps that is 100% wrong. It has been years since I built my harness. (Yours looks much prettier, BGW.)

Anyway, I did utilize the cruise stuff when converting my '78. I'd already set up a cruise control system, so I'd previously figured out a switch and speed sensor, and just had to eliminate the unnecessary parts to make it work at that point.

Long story short, you're this close for easily having cruise control. It is super nice to use on the highway. I'd at least extend all your wiring the correct directions so even if you just want to drive it for now, you'll be all set in case you want it later.

Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:58 am

One other thing with the Cruise control from a TDI Passat guy- most people wire in a switch to the speed input to the ECU. The issue is, when running the RPM's below about 1800 RPM, you will get a shudder when trying to accelerate in high gear. If the speed input is not connected to the ECU, this doesn't happen. On a Van, running the RPM's this low probably isn't a good idea, but I thought I should mention it. I have played with different IQ settings etc. trying to eliminate the shudder, but it is always there without the speed input disconnected. My TD Passat was nicer to drive at low RPM because it didn't have the shudder.

Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:29 am

thanks guys.
for the actual use of cruise, im not too worried about that, but did leave the option open by stubbing those wires.
if somehow we change our mind its a simple 8 pin connector with extension wires, and an arts and crafts project to fit some switches.

the speed sensor related shudder is more concerning though - were any of those ecus tuned?

i have read there are faults for just leaving the cc related inputs unplugged and running the stock ecu this way. i think specifically to do with that brake light and brake pedal rationality check - which might explain that strange post-startup behavior when theyre left disconnected.

my conversations with malone specifically discussed them turning off any faults related to the cc/brake/clutch inputs and tune adjustments as needed to compensate for leaving the speed sensor disconnected, and owain didnt seem worried about doing any of that.

DigiMatrix wrote: One other thing with the Cruise control from a TDI Passat guy- most people wire in a switch to the speed input to the ECU. The issue is, when running the RPM's below about 1800 RPM, you will get a shudder when trying to accelerate in high gear. If the speed input is not connected to the ECU, this doesn't happen. On a Van, running the RPM's this low probably isn't a good idea, but I thought I should mention it. I have played with different IQ settings etc. trying to eliminate the shudder, but it is always there without the speed input disconnected. My TD Passat was nicer to drive at low RPM because it didn't have the shudder.

maybe its too early on a holiday weekend :lol: but are you saying the shudder is only an issue with a speed sensor input on a van?
in that case maybe nothing for me to worry about!

Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:06 am

Did a little looking in on the shudder issue, as it is something I experience in my swapped Bus. And after losing a transmission a year ago, and being told it is because the TDI motor "pounds on" the internals, the shudder has since had me nervous.

I mostly notice it when using cruise at very specific instances. I.e. instances where very little throttle response would be required by the engine to maintain speed--so mostly flat roads in non-challenging environments. If I kick off the cruise and just use the throttle, no shuddering--I think mostly because I am allowing it to coast briefly and then providing a little more fuel, vs giving a consistent amount of fuel to maintain speed.

In the reading I've done now, it appears that the issue is related to tuning and upgraded parts-such as bigger nozzles on injectors and timing and the like. And unplugging the speed sensor puts the computer in a different mode, making it a non-issue/masking the issue.

I have nice weather and a day off work on the 1st, and a long trip planned the following weekend, so I think I'll play with these things a bit and see what I can come up with. (Double-checking the timing, and playing with the IQ settings.)

Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:30 am

If the shudder goes away when you disconnect the speed sensor, it is related to a sticking quantity adjuster. As it is magnetic, microscopic metal particels stick to it and slow is movements. You can clean it. below 1800 rpm, it is in closed loop mode, constant rpm for constant pedal postion. Over 1800 rpm, it is in open loop mode, constant fuel quantity for constant pedal position. If you disconnect the speed sensor, it is always in open loop.
Of course it is better to have a clean quantity adjuster... of course, it can also happen with improper tune or other mods, as closed loop control easily causes shudder when one or more parameters are changed.

Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:44 am

I ran my ALH for a couple months without a speed sensor with out any issue. When I decided to activate the cruise control, I added a vw speed sensor to the stock cluster. What was odd is I started noticing a weird stutter slowing down after installing the speed sensor.

Doing similar reading, I found a lot of info on the SDS or slow down stutter. I was able to adjust the inj quantity to a higher number using vcds and solved the stutter.

I later added slightly larger nozzles and the SDS returned which was predicted. I set the IQ back to the stock setting in VCDS and then preformed the "Hammer Mod" to get my IQ where I wanted it.

Been fine for years now.

Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:23 pm

very awesome build. Note for any 1z guys is the pistons are kinda crummy and tend to melt ring lands when egt gets warm.....been their. AHU and ALH had diff pistons and thus not much issues. I personally have done a couple 1z and ALH swaps in Vanagons and am curious how you plan to tackle the oil return? you can not use the OEM return in the block because when laid at 50 degree's the return line becomes higher than the return off the turbo. I welded a fitting to the pan super tight to the mounting flanges to keep it as high on pan as possible. You don't want to drain INTO oil as it wont drain fast enough and back up and push oil out the turbo seals. Your build looks very well planned out but figured I would just give my .02$ to try and save you some time later on

For everyone else the Start/die symptom you speak of is a result of not "jumping out" the brake and clutch switches when building the harness. If their not jumped out in a DriveByWire management the ecu thinks you are "on the brakes" and kills your acceleration. Building these harnesses is what I don so I speak from experience their.
Cruise is a simple thing to do and really only requires four wires and a simple clutch/brake switch wire up. VSS can be had several ways via Vanagon clusters or inline speedo drive signal generators. If anyone has questions about wiring, that I can 100% answer :)

Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:43 pm

appreciate the kind words!

the exhaust manifold and the pan are both new JX parts - so the drain is going to go into the pan like a stock JX setup right at the flange like your build did, and the manifold is going to mount the turbo to the side of the engine mount like the JX as well.
i opted for that versus trying to use an AAZ type manifold so we wouldnt have to screw with moving any mounts, and the price of the new JX pans is low enough that i didnt want to screw with welding fittings to the oily dirty cast aluminum original diesel van pan

that makes sense on the brake pedal input and torque cut, i dont expect to run into it but its good to know theres a pretty clear root cause.

the other van we're currently building - a more wild vnt AHU into a syncro tin top (soon to be westy) is getting the full cruise setup and hes got some solutions to the VSS input, so if i need to fire up cruise control later on down the road ill copy that setup.

in the meantime still waiting on parts...
ordered a turbo rebuild kit and hope to get that wrapped this weekend.

Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:22 pm

some pics of the turbo rebuild.
once the exhaust housing came off the rest of this went pretty easily. all just sort of stacks up and clicks into place and there arent that many parts to replace.

mocking up the adapter to the JX manifold
hard to tell from the picture but theres a little adjustment needed on the manifold side to get everything matched up.

once the turbo housings come back from the machine shop (couple of broken studs) i can get this mounted up.

now back to waiting for more parts!

Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:31 pm

Just an FYI, the compressor and turbine shaft are dynamically balanced and spin 100,000+ rpms. Installing them oriented the same as last time they were dynamically balanced is quite risky. Installing them any other way is likely to fail before long.

Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:41 pm

you're right, definitely one of the potential risks of DIYing the rebuild is skipping the rebalancing.
it seems like the 1.8t folks, who are doing most of these k03 rebuilds, generally have good luck getting then back together the way they came apart
I was able to mark it and get the compressor side back on in the same orientation I found it.
will keep an eye on it though!

Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:52 pm

Your turbo rebuild went by a lot better than mine. Good stuff. Where did you source your rebuild kit?

Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:36 am

ebay, seems even the "reputable" kits sold by some of the turbo shops come from chinese vendors anyway. i think it was something like $35 to my door.

i couldnt find an exact kit for the k03-006 but found one that was close.
from what i could tell nearly all the internals are the same across the k03 line, and the parts that came in this kit fit perfectly. i ended up with extra exhaust housing mounting tabs i wont use but otherwise all else fit.

Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:49 pm

i think at this point ive read just about every vanagon 50deg turbo clocking thread i could find across the various usual vw and diesel van spots :?

for anyone stumbling across this in the future, i think this one
http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/turbo-oil-return_topic70930_page1.html
seemed to me to be the most informative, particularly because the poster took the time to post some pictures of various combos - JX stock, VNT, VNT on a JX manifold

lets see if cross posting the pics works - here is the relevant one for this build, the angle of the stock JX w/ K14

i have to say all around its a fairly sub optimal :lol: setup having the engine laid over so far - not much distance for the return to drop/slope, the return itself being submerged when the engine is stationary, the limited overall angle available for clocking, etc.

not something ive had to give too much thought to on any previous turbo builds, but, we'll see how it goes!

if that thread is to be believed this non-VNT setup should be a little more robust in terms of draining as larger angles, which from the pictures of the internal return size (see previous post) it looks like it can sit safely around the angle its at.

at any rate i got most of the hot side of the motor put back together

mock up of the turbo and adapter, as i was told by the guy who makes them that both the adapter and the manifold need some touching up with a die grinder.

getting ready for the return line building...

tried to line up the shot for an "at oil pan level" perspective from the side

and finally the side view

i have some more parts on order from anplumbing - heat shield and clamps for the return line, and a little bit of heat shield for the as-yet-to-be-built feed line, along with all the fittings for that.

the cold side of the motor is taking shape also, pump is back from the rebuilders.
ive got a line on an 02A bell housing as well so we'll yard it all off the stand to time it and do the rear main, then put it back on for the final bits and bobs.

hope to have everything buttoned up by the end of next week once all the parts arrive... then all old stuff needs to come out of the van!

Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:58 pm

Hmmm, I don't understand your manifold choice for that turbo. The AAZ K03 with matching manifold will fit without any adapter plate needed and no interference with anything. The turbo is in a better location for the oil supply/return which can be clocked perfectly vertical. The drop is better to the pan for drainage. The hose routing is easier for intake/exhaust. Etc, etc, etc... There are only downsides to using the JX/quantum manifold in that configuration with that turbo.