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goober Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:38 am

Would you own or drive a Drive By Wire vehicle?

Wikipedia,

"Failures in electronic control units used to implement these drive by wire functionalists can lead to potential hazardous situations where the driver's ability to control the vehicle will depend on the vehicle operating scenario."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive_by_wire

Our classic VW's are often sighted as unsafe. But how unsafe are they compared to what I see is the hidden potential dangers of Drive By Wire vehicles?

We have real mechanical systems connecting us directly to control our Bugs. For example, could you steer or brake a Drive By Wire vehicle with a dead or missing battery?

Personally, I wouldn't own or drive a Drive By Wire vehicle.

Just curious.

kingkarmann Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:44 am

I'm thinking most newer cars have some sort of "Drive by Wire" feature/s.
One that comes to mind is the accelerator pedal. In my GTI it functions as a rheostat and is not physically linked to the throttle body.

busdaddy Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:26 am

The F-16 fighter jet (and others) have used it for 40 years+, can't be all that bad.

[email protected] Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:19 am

pretty much every European car from about 1999 had DBW, Japanese were using it by 2004. Domestics were there at or around the same time

no worse than having a throttle cable snap on you. when the DBW system fails, they typically hold a 1800-2200 rpm "idle" so you can limp off to safety.

biggest thing with DBW systems is keeping the throttle blade clean of any deposits, and you must use a special cleaner so it doesn't wick up the throttle shaft and into the electronics.

my wife's old 1.8t jetta that we sold to a friend has clicked 290k on the original throttle body and accelerator pedal. still working just fine.

as to owing one...both of our audi's and volvo have DBW. no issues

kingkarmann Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:41 am

[email protected] wrote: pretty much every European car from about 1999 had DBW, Japanese were using it by 2004. Domestics were there at or around the same time

no worse than having a throttle cable snap on you. when the DBW system fails, they typically hold a 1800-2200 rpm "idle" so you can limp off to safety.

biggest thing with DBW systems is keeping the throttle blade clean of any deposits, and you must use a special cleaner so it doesn't wick up the throttle shaft and into the electronics.

my wife's old 1.8t jetta that we sold to a friend has clicked 290k on the original throttle body and accelerator pedal. still working just fine.

as to owing one...both of our audi's and volvo have DBW. no issues
Thanks for that bit of advice on cleaning the throttle blade!
I just turned 160k on my MK6 GTI. So far so good😎

cbeck Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:43 am

I have heard about more beetle broken throtle cables than dbw assemblies.

oprn Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:14 pm

Broken throttle cables do happen and in my experiance are not really that much of a safety hazard. Stuck throttles on the other hand can be if the driver does not have the self control/common sense to turn the key to the off position.

I have experiance both on several occasions with older mechanical linkages. Drive by wire systems can and do fail both ways too. Nothing man made is infallible! I own and drive both.

[email protected] Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:29 pm

kingkarmann wrote:
Thanks for that bit of advice on cleaning the throttle blade!
I just turned 160k on my MK6 GTI. So far so good😎

meh...I wouldn't bother. you're about at the mileage where the intake will be coked up or your timing chains are going to explode. you can clean it then

VOLKSWAGNUT Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:47 am

^ :lol: true..


Drive by wire... haha. That's old tech... just wait till drive by wireless is implemented further :shock: ..

Im sure more wireless systems in vehicles will happen in time .. hope not... its bad enough to get peoples hand held toys to talk to their infotainment systems as it is.. dont even get me started on these new smart keys with wireless door locks and ignition ..

So far.. safety systems such as steering and braking .. still have a redundant mechanical connections between them and the inattentive driver in the event an electronic fault or failure occurs.

Throttle by wire... has somewhat proven itself as reliable... ...
Still has the problem when the loose and poor fitting floor mat happens to flip up on the pedal and peg it to the floor..

I've had more "accelerates on its own" problems roll in the shop.. that 99% of the time turn out to be floor mat issues than the actual drive by wire problem.

Most vehicles now have implemented the two pedal input into its safety system .. .. where if both the brake and throttle are indicated as a simultaneous input..it reduces engine power .

Yes.. you can thank the whole Toyota (floor mat) unintended acceleration debacle from a few years ago..
Thank Ford and Firestone for tire pressure monitoring.. from the Exploder roll overs.

Vehicle buttons and knobs are nothing more than sensors to tell a controller to do the work any more..


.

kingkarmann Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:55 am

[email protected] wrote: kingkarmann wrote:
Thanks for that bit of advice on cleaning the throttle blade!
I just turned 160k on my MK6 GTI. So far so good😎

meh...I wouldn't bother. you're about at the mileage where the intake will be coked up or your timing chains are going to explode. you can clean it then
Thankfully the de-carbon was done during a manifold recall replacement. I installed an upgraded TC tensioner at 125k. I sleep a bit easier :)

Getting back to DBW vs. Mechanical linkages. A few years ago I replaced the ball & socket linkages on the Ghia carbs. Took it out for a test drive and the throttle stuck open. Scared the hell out of me as my first instinct was to push in the clutch. I thought I was the motor was going to blow! The ball/socket was very tight and would not move freely. Talked to the vendor who sent a replacement set that worked much better.

Abscate Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:36 am

Poor drivers aka, pilot error, swamped technology as root cause of accidents decades ago.

In flight, pilot error is now also the major cause of air accidents, and pilots are about 10,000x safer than auto drivers.

[email protected] Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:28 pm

Problem is no one knows how to fly the plane anymore. Too much automation. These guys should be forcedd to fly every other trip 100% mechanical for a period of time to keep sharp

Chad1376 Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:58 pm

Old ACVWs have always been "drive by wire"...Wire throttle and clutch cables.

I've broken both. Not always reliable. :lol:

Zundfolge1432 Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:01 pm

[email protected] wrote: Problem is no one knows how to fly the plane anymore. Too much automation. These guys should be forcedd to fly every other trip 100% mechanical for a period of time to keep sharp

In fact this is a requirement by FAA that they demonstrate proficiency like this both in the cockpit and in the simulator on a periodic basis. Lots of redundancy in aviation including having two guys present That know how to fly the plane.

You’d like this but we used to go on test flights with planes fresh out of overhaul, no passengers just two test pilots and a few mechanics. The avionics guys would go into avionics bay beneath the floor in flight to change out black boxes sometimes. Believe me the test hops are fun, Dutch rolls, testing stick shaker, 757-200 is my favorite hotrod. :D by the time a man is flying commercial he has thousands of hours and is type rated.

goober Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:08 pm

An old article (Wired 6-4-14) but............

"Automakers are slowly foisting autonomous driving technology on us, and Infiniti is the latest to drive us ever closer to the cliff. The new Q50 is the market’s first “steer-by-wire” model, meaning there’s no mechanical connection between the wheel in your hands and the wheels on the street. Just electric signals."

***************

"Steer-by-wire has been the norm in aviation for decades, and Infiniti is the first to bring it to market. The system in the Q50, in development for more than 10 years, is pretty straightforward. Turning the steering wheel sends an electronic signal to the steering force actuator, which sends data to the electronic control unit, which forwards it to the steering angle actuator, which turns the wheels."

https://www.wired.com/2014/06/infiniti-q50-steer-by-wire/

Could you steer the Q50 with a dead or missing battery? Could you tow the Q50?

Should the electronic steering fail who would be responsible for any bodily injury, death or property damage? How would you prove such a failure after an accident? By computer?

You know it's heading that way. They'll get the problems worked out and ultimately the cost down under mechanical systems . Electric motors and sensors have to be cheaper to produce than machining a worm gear or rack & pinion. Think plastic steering wheel and a pot.

I won't be around long enough to worry about DBW. But if I were you, I'd hang on to my old titles. :)

ToolBox Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:26 am

The 09 Ford Escape Hybrid has a brake pedal simulator as the human interface to the vehicle service brake. The pedal is only in contact with the booster rod when in fail safe mode. The rod floats in a clevis undernormal brake applications while the active booster applies the service brakes.


danfromsyr Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:04 am

next we'll hear how point less ignitions are pointless..

bluebus86 Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:36 am

friend has a new toyota truck and hates the electric gas pedal, numerous problems with it. My cable operated Bug gas pedal has had one replacement cable in 59 years, near 350,000 miles. I wonder if replacement parts for the toyota will be available in 59 years from now.

The old cable system can be repaired with bailing wire if need be, not sure a rigged system would be workable on the toyota.

Simplicity sometimes is good.

Bug On!

Zundfolge1432 Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:08 am

danfromsyr wrote: next we'll hear how point less ignitions are pointless..

It’s the angry old man bitch fest again. The post just above this one is ridiculous, any problems associated with Toyota were traced back to floor mat getting tangled up. The rest are akin to a shakedown/ merit less lawsuits kinda like an automotive slip and fall to get go away money from companies with deep pockets. What they don’t take into account is the vehicle event recorder which proves what is really happening.

[email protected] Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:32 pm

Zundfolge1432 wrote: any problems associated with Toyota were traced back to floor mat getting tangled up..

um, no. it was 'tin whiskers' due to lead free solder

https://www.autosafety.org/sites/default/files/imce_staff_uploads/Tin_whisker.pdf

i can ask my Denso training rep for the internal Toyota docs...i may have that pdf but it's on an old laptop.

of course Toyota wants to blame floor mats.



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