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Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:27 pm

Hi,

I bought some new inner wheel bearings from jbugs and when I went to put the wheel on, I realized the bearing race doesn’t quite fit on the spindle. It looks like the spindle is stepped. Does anyone else have this as typical? Do I just have the wrong bearing? I’m going from the old ball bearings to new needle bearings.

I think the car is a 59 convertible but it is a dune buggy so I’m trying to figure out.

Thanks for any help!

Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:52 am

Didn't early VWs like 1959 use ball bearings and not roller bearings? Are your bearings correct for a 1959?

Of course, who knows what is not original on a 60-year-old VW???

Sun Jan 26, 2020 3:55 pm

i'm having a difficult time trying to figure out what that grease covered thing is that is inboard of the roller bearing. looks like a ball bearing? what is it? will you clean all that stuff up and post better pics?

originally you could have either ball bearings or roller bearings. you can't mix and match them, you have to use matched pairs.
roller bearings would have part number 30305 (inner), 30304 (outer).
ball bearing type would be 17305 (inner), 17304 (outer).
they should be somewhat "difficult" to get on the spindles, but not impossible.

it also looks like you are missing the spacer (disregard the bearing race, that is from a ball type bearing). see pic:

Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:02 pm

Early bugs had ball bearings, to use roller you have to sand spindles down a little, done it a few times.

Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:25 pm

Original style ball bearings for ~'59 VWs are long obsolete in the aftersales market, so tapered roller bearings are commonly sold as replacements nowadays.

I see the seal has pulled out of the drum and is still on the spindle. That's what happens when the bearing gets stuck on the spindle while pulling the drum back off.

Indeed as hazetguy said the inner spacer is missing. Very critical part that also works as the seal race so you must track one down and install first.

Yes the bearing race should be a tight fit on the spindle, that is how they were designed, so tight if you get them even a little bit crooked they get stuck.
Notable is VW even shows the use of a special puller to remove drums. Don't have an early manual handy but do know I've seen factory pictures.

Of course there are factory +/- tolerances for the making of all machined spindles and bearings, to be sure you would have to measure your parts to see if the bearing's ID is smaller than the spindles OD.

Either way I'd suggest try a dry fit first. With the correct snug fit you'll find out just how easy it is to get them crooked and locked up. Even when test fitting with the correct fit I've gotten them cocked a little and had to gently pry them back off.

The idea of reducing the size of the spindle should only be a last resort as you can never restore the metal back. Rule of thumb is to modify the part rather than the car.
If there is a little burr or distressed area where the old bearing rode then yes polish it off in the least aggressive manor.

Once you have all the correct parts and know they fit, easiest way to install everything is as an assembly...

-Drive the spacer on with a drift, it should be press fit.
-Put the drum face down on a clean surface and lightly grease the cleaned hub recess.
-Install the packed inner bearing into it's race.
-Install a new tight fitting seal in the drum.
-Smear the insides of the hub flush to the bearing with a generous amount of grease.
-Turn the drum over and install the packed outer bearing in it's race.
-Next place both thumbs onto the inner bearing race and spread out both hands to grip the outer edges of the drum with your fingers.
-Now pick up the assembly all as one and slowly place it over the cleaned and lightly greased spindle.
-Once you get the outer bearing on enough for the threads start to show use one firm motion to push until fully seated.
-Adjust using the procedure for later Beetles with tapered roller bearings.

Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:34 pm

Thank you so much for the very detailed reply!

I’ve taken some more pictures so you guys can see. The black thing was the rubber seal over the spacer. I was just checking that it all made sense. I did remove the old race.

In the picture with my finger, you can see on the spindle there is an ever so small lip. I seem to have misplaced my caliper to confirm, but The inner ring of the bearing definitely seems too small by a hair once it hits the lip of the spindle where the old bearing race use to sit. As you guys assumed correctly, I had ball bearings previously. I needed to replace the outer bearings so o figured I’d just finish off the upgrade all at once.

The FAG part I have is 30305A. Does that “A” have any meaningful difference? Thanks again for the help!

Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:14 am

Could be a ridge, caused through an old bearing that might had a damage one time. I would carefully file it and try again. The seat is hardened.

Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:49 am

Great picture of your spindle, that helps a lot! :wink:

As said "If there is a little burr or distressed area where the old bearing rode then yes polish it off in the least aggressive manor."

A file followed by fine emory cloth is okay, just be careful to keep it round and clean all shavings off before final assembly.

Looks like you have the right bearing too, don't think the A has any significance.

Most important-on final assembly having the outer bearing in the hub really helps to keep the inner bearing aligned so it doesn't jamb up.

Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:58 am

RWK wrote: Early bugs had ball bearings, to use roller you have to sand spindles down a little, done it a few times.

Same here. Not unusual to run into this. I take care and start with something fairly agresssive and try to be as uniform as I can sanding. Once I get close, I move to 200, then maybe 400 to finish it off. A light wipe of grease is a good thing to do when you are ready to slide it on.

Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:43 pm

thanks for the clearer pics.

a few suggestions:
-replace that spacer. it is very worn, isn't going to seal well, and those (what look to be) chisel marks on the face are not good.
-about getting the bearing on: you're trying to get it on with no other help than your hands, and that is difficult. when you have it installed in a drum you will be able to apply a lot more pushing force on it. it looks like there is/was a slight "burr" on the spindle, just be careful if you do sand it down.
-that being said, i would really do some measuring of the diameter of the spindle where the bearing eventually seats. it looks worn, and if it is too worn (the spec is in the service manual somewhere), that will also cause bearing issues in the long term.

Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:56 pm

Thanks so much for the help! Based on the feedback here I did a dry run this morning just to see what it would take to put the old race back on. Sure enough, it was an extremely tight fit. In fact, those ‘chisel’ marks on the spacer are from a flathead and a hammer to get the old race out. Lesson learned. I’ll replace it.
I’ll try the sanding thing tomorrow. I had the whole assembly graded and ready to go on and it didn’t fit well and that’s howi ran into this. I’ll let you know how it turns out. Hopefully I can do this side and then the other and then drive it a bit. Still got to fix rear passenger handbrake cable, windshield and roll bar are not level, etc etc...

Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:51 am

A bit of heat on the spacer helps a lot. Just don't grab it with your bare hands :lol:

Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:35 pm

Boy I wish I had thought about the issues mentioned in this post before I greased everything up to install new roller bearings today. I had not thought to think of the fit of the new bearings against the inner portion of the spindle. Thanks for the good information.

I think I've got the idea from reading this thread, but to make sure, it seems like I have to take the tapered (inner inner? race) off my spindle and then the new bearings will seat against the spacer, possibly with some slight thinning of the spindle by emery cloth to get the bearings to thread all the way onto it. Is this right?

And to do this, the inner, inner, race needs to be pried off (tight friction fit is how it's on) without damaging the spacing. Is this right?

I hope I can do all this with the spindle connected to the backing plate and to the torsion arms as they are now. Pictures are below for reference.

Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:12 pm

You have left the old inner race from the ball bearing on the spindle. That has to come off and be discarded but the spacer behind it has to stay on.

Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:24 pm

Thank you for that. Yes, I was starting to realize reading the thread that the race has to come off but then as you say, the new roller bearing unit should just butt up to the spacer - no substitute race or anything needed? I'm not relishing wrestling the old races off the spindles. Sounds tough... Someone said heat may help. I wondered also if cold on the spindle itself would help.

Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:50 pm

Each new wheel bearing consists of 3 parts. An inner race, a caged bearing assembly, and an outer race.

The inner race of the inner bearing goes on the spindle, right up against the spacer that the seal runs on when assembled. Everything else will be going into the brake drum, along with a new seal.

Both outer races need to be installed into the brake drum after the old ones have been removed. Then the caged bearing assemblies need to be carefully packed with grease, making sure to fill the entire space between all the rollers. Next the inner bearing needs to be placed in the brake drum with a thin wipe of grease on the new race. Now you can install the new seal flush with the back of the drum.

At this point you should wipe down the braking surface to remove any grease or oils, and you are ready to install the brake drum. If the brakes are not complete, or you have not tested the inner race of the outer bearing on the spindle I would set the drum aside and cover it to keep dust and dirt out.

The inner race of the outer bearing needs to fit without looseness on the spindle, but it should move in/out freely when grabbed with a finger and thumb. It needs to be able to move so the bearings can be adjusted.

Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:15 am

Start by placing a cold chisel right on the seam between the bearing and seal race, then hammer until you get a little gap. This may leave a little damage on the race but you can forge it back in shape with a hammer or file it off.

Once you get a gap use a rolling head pry bar working one side then the other until the race is off:

Nothing to dread except maybe spending some money on the tools needed :wink:

Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:38 pm

Thank you so much for your assistance, everyone. I am trying to get the inner-inner race off the spindle and its not budging yet, even with some chisel wedging attempts all around. I'll keep working on it.

I guess I'm still a bit confused on the races. When I opened up my new roller bearing boxes, the races that are driven into the brake drums slide off the bearing assembly. Those are the outer race for the inner bearings and the inner race for the outer bearings, if that's the terminology. In other words, the races that the outer diameter of the bearings nest in. I tapped out the old races and drove these new ones into the hub. Nothing else slides off the bearing units besides these races, as far as I can see.

So probably I'm misinterpreting your statement, EVfun:

Quote: Each new wheel bearing consists of 3 parts. An inner race, a caged bearing assembly, and an outer race.

if I read it to mean 3 separable parts.

So it seems that once I take the old inner race (for ball bearings) off the spindle, I should be able to slide the hub onto the spindle, with bearing and built-in inner race (surface facing us in the first photo below) then butting up against the spacer.

On the outboard side of the hub, it would be outer bearing unit placed into inner race for this bearing and then the brake drum is carefully slid onto the spindle. The old curved race for the outer bearings is left off (the one with the arrow in the second photo) in the process and the shaped washer, nut, locking tab washer, nut, secure everything to the spindle.

In other words, to make all this more succinct, the separate races (outer for outer bearings and inner for inner bearings) that are separate units in the ball bearing style bearings, are built-in on the roller style bearings, so the main thing is to make sure these separate two races are out of there when installing the new bearings.

Sorry to be so long-winded. I'm slow. Please kindly correct my thinking if I'm off.

Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:25 pm

:shock: :-k :?: Not sure how that will work. You need to put the inner wheel bearing into the brake drum so you can install the seal. Just the race is pre-installed on the spindle. I removed roller bearings that where 3 parts each just like the ball bearings I installed. You got me -- never seen that in a front wheel bearing.

Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:25 am

@ticovolks,

Long winded but yes you've got it. The new bearing's are "two peice" in a manner of speaking, old style is three.

As for getting your old races off, you can remove the backing plate and that will give you greater access to drive them off. Simply remove the three bolts and leaving the hose attached swing the assembly to one side and hang it by a hook to the frame somewhere.

With better access you can now angle your chisel at a sharper angle. You want to use something like a 1" chisel and a two to three pound hammer. Be VERY careful not to nick or ding the spindle.

Once you've got it to move and open a gap, you can put the three bolts back in the bare spindle and those will give you something to rest a flat pry bar on.
Two pry bars are better, one on each side alternating back and forth with pressure. Unthread the bolts a little at a time or even install longer ones for best leverage once ot starts to move.

With a positive attitude you'll have it off in no time :)

P.S.
Be sure to review comments made above to OP about test fitting the new bearings to spindle before greasing them up and best practices for installing.