TheSamba.com :: View topic - 1994 Eurovan 5 cyl with manual trans... options for engine swap

Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:46 pm

I am green in mechanic...so I need help.

A 1994, 5 cylinders has low compression on one cylinder, not sure what cause that, but would like to know what are the main reasons...I will investigate.

The main question...if I need to rebuild the engine, should I consider an engine swap for something a bit stronger? not necessarily a VR6 but an engine with more edge... Which VW or Audi engine will fit best? Ideally I would like to stay with gas engine but open to diesel as well, (what are the advantages)

Also doing that, Will I need to upgrade brakes?

Thanks and again I am not good at mechanic, keep it simple to understand :)

Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:53 pm

Gas -
4cyl 1.8 turbo out of a mk4 - AWP
General things to do:
Wiring/pass mount/downpipe/turbo plumbing/coolant plumbing

Diesel -
4cy 1.9 tdi out of mk3/b4 AHU/1z.
General things to do:
Wiring/downpipe/turbo plumbing/coolant plumbing/fuel delivery

4cy 1.9 tdi out of mk4 ALH
General things to do:
Wiring/pass mount/downpipe/turbo plumbing/coolant plumbing/fuel delivery/sump modification

Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:13 pm

I think the AEB 1.8t might be easier, since it should bolt right up to the factory European 1.9TD sump. Wouldn't a European 2.5 TDI bolt right up to the 2.4 sump and mounts? I suspect that with any of these swaps you'd want to change out the transmission gearing, as the 2.4 is probably geared pretty short.

Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:11 pm

@Joshwa
Which one do you recommend? which one is the easiest?

Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:19 pm

That’s a varying matter of opinion. I’ve done two AHU/1z, so those are the easiest for me. The 1.8 gas could be fun. You’ll need to learn a lot or spend a lot to get any of these done.

Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:03 am

Boy , when you do this don't you lose a ton of power? Diesels are very slow compared to gas and hard to start in winter.. plus you may have emissions to deal with de
Pending where you are..plus there is lots of work and,$$ involved...I hate to be so negative but I'm I realist.. Good luck either way..Bill

Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:56 am

My 1.9 AHU tdi has more power, more possible power, starts fine in the winter so long as the glow plugs are working, gets 30 mpg average, and doesn’t constantly run the engine fans. This compared to the 5cyl. I live in an area where diesel emissions testing is not required. Downside of the diesel would be the vibration, and it doesn’t generate much heat initially for warming the interior.

Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:58 am

Anybody consider the newer 2.5L VW inline 5's? They are dirt cheap, torque is similar to the VR6's, HP lands between the 12v and 24v versions of the VR6, and the 2.5L shouldn't require a change in gearing like a TDi would. IMO, the price of one of these engine, plus a stand-alone EMS, is thousands cheaper than a diesel conversion.

Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:29 am

I'm pretty sure the newer fives are built on an entirely different pan and bellhousing footprint, than the older Audi designed versions, but I could be wrong. They are super abundant and cheap right now

Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:42 pm

Zeitgeist 13 wrote: I'm pretty sure the newer fives are built on an entirely different pan and bellhousing footprint, than the older Audi designed versions, but I could be wrong. They are super abundant and cheap right now

I haven't spent enough time researching the differences, as claims made online between forum users and vendors seem to vary and contradict.

I realize the 1.8t engine bolts up to the 5-cylinder EV bellhousings. [seems to be a fact]

The 07k (I-5) definitely bolts up to the 02A and 02J (1.8t/2.0) transaxles with some grinding to the bellhousing to clear the timing chain housing on the 07k engine. [edited: this is what Fabless Manufacturing specifies on their engine swap kits]

I've read multiple claims that the 07k shares the same bellhousing pattern as the 1.8t, but I haven't seen pics or dimensions to confirm/refute this. [claims]

Last but not least, I've read that the 07k also bolts up to the 01E transaxle (Audi V6) [claim], which the 1.8t also bolts up to [fact?], but the 01E requires an adapter plate to mate it to a VR6 [fact].

[edited] Quite simply, I don't know for certain. I will contact Fabless Mfg and inquire about the compatibility of the bellhousing patterns.[/edit]

Anyway, I'll quit confusing the topic until I drive my transaxle into oblivion and am forced to revisit powertrain options!

Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:26 pm

Stripped66 wrote: Anybody consider the newer 2.5L VW inline 5's? They are dirt cheap, torque is similar to the VR6's, HP lands between the 12v and 24v versions of the VR6, and the 2.5L shouldn't require a change in gearing like a TDi would. IMO, the price of one of these engine, plus a stand-alone EMS, is thousands cheaper than a diesel conversion.

I’m curious on how it’s thousands cheaper. Most everything was bolt on for my diesel conversion. I foresee more custom work with any other engines aside from the ones I listed or the 2.5 diesel. In my opinion conversions are reasonable to cheap, if you can do them yourself, but expensive if you can’t.

Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:10 pm

Joshwa wrote:
I’m curious on how it’s thousands cheaper. Most everything was bolt on for my diesel conversion. I foresee more custom work with any other engines aside from the ones I listed or the 2.5 diesel.

That assumption was based on the bellhousing bolt pattern, which Zeitgeist noted may not match the earlier 5-cylinder bellhousings. If it was a bolt-together affair (I'll confirm the bellhousing pattern...but even if it is a match, there is still the issue of the timing chain cover, oil pan, ancillaries, etc), you could source a used 07K and a new stand-alone EMS for less than $1200 (and even less if you sourced a used EMS, or opted to assemble a Megasquirt kit yourself).

The costs for a diesel swap? You documented over $2300 on your first swap, but you can vouch whether you could have been more frugal on that build. If I jump online and just search ALH's, I can find some sub-$1000 engines with 250K+ miles. Or, lower mileage engines for $2K+. And then swap 5th gear ratios, or R&P? Or matching engine and transmission combos for ~$5k?

Joshwa wrote: In my opinion conversions are reasonable to cheap, if you can do them yourself, but expensive if you can’t.
Absolutely. And, yeah, I was looking at the higher end of what a bolt-together solution might entail on a diesel-swap. But because I don't know to what degree the 07K may be a bolt-on affair, I can't opine on the costs beyond the engine and engine management...so, I apologize for any confusion by even suggesting it!

Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:01 pm

Wow, $2300 is pretty cheap for an engine swap of any kind. I think the DIY ALH swap into my Vanagon comes in around $3k, half of which was solely the cost for my manual injection pump. If I were to do it again, I think I could possibly make it happen for between $1500 and $2000.

I think an AEB 1.8t could be done for really cheap, using all the stock engine management system and wiring. How much is a T4 1.9TD install package?

Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:13 pm

Really, my cheap swaps were mostly due to the van being already a manual transmission. For a later model, different, since you neat to swap the transmission as well. Not too long ago, a diesel geared transmission and swap parts is about 2500-3000. Then your donor car cost. I agree and say 4-5k to do it yourself with no shortcuts.

Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:56 am

Just to address my uncertainty above, Fabless Manufacturing and Kennedy Engineering documents that the 07K shares the same bellhousing pattern as the 1.8t and 2.0. So, that's the easy part.

The hard parts:
- What additional modification to the EV transaxle that is needed to clear the timing chain cover on the 07K is unknown.
- Passenger side motor mount will likely require a custom adaptation
- Ancillaries (alternator, PS pump, A/C compressor) will need to be adapted
- Air enters intake/throttle-body from driver's side
- Engine management (whether you attempt to adapt the stock ECM or start from scratch with a new EMS, assuming you have no experience with either)

Should the OP consider the 07K? Probably not.

Still, I'm interested to see whether the growing popularity of the 07K swaps eventually makes its way over to the EV.

Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:09 am

To go with your list of modifications needed for engines that mate to the bell housing, are additionally:

Transmission extension arm interferes with sump. Sump modification.

The support for the Transmission extension arm to the back of the engine.

Downpipe

Throttle mounting

Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:30 am

It makes sense that VAG made the new fiver bell footprint the same as other popular engines. I googled 07K and saw a pic of the bare block. It appears to be configured like a VR6, but in inline orientation.

The sump would also need to be modded to tilt the engine forward instead of 15 degrees backward like all the othe FWD cars. Thanks for shedding some light on this engine option.

Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:47 am

Indeed, I didn't mention the sump mods or Josh's list as they are the same issues with any engine swap that's not EV-specific.

I know the 1.8t swap into EV has been done before, but it also poses the same challenges as the 07K...but with an older, more expensive engine that might additionally require a new or rebuilt turbo to restore reasonable performance (bias: I've owned a 1.8t powered A4 for the past 13 years...).

Given the OP's admitted lack of of mechanical expertise, it might be wise to steer him towards Josh's diesel build thread. He may be able to assess whether he's capable of starting and finishing the least complicated of the swaps discussed.

Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:06 am

I finally looked up the 07k and it does look like a good option to stay gas. I wonder what sensors or emissions would be needed for it to run properly. But definitely is a good option I haven't heard about till now.

Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:50 pm

This person is not mechanically solid so how about rebuilding his own engine.
Or having it done by a pro..parts r available.
Either way it's a crap shoot on used..

Just a idea
.if rebuilding your own or putting a used engine is the same price I'M d go.for the rebuild..a used engine is a used engine which may blow up in 500 miles...u really never know
Good luck either way
..Bill in Puerto Rico 4 now
.and other used engines swaps... is not for the weak of heart..and your van may be down for months but very nice in u pull it off..

Thanks for listening to a old hippy