TheSamba.com :: View topic - Should I close the doors to my business for the next 30+ days?

Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:11 pm

Finally the gov has declared a shelter in Place Order is appropriate. Now if your familiar with AZ you know we do odd shit. Gov Ducey has decided that such things as golf courses and gun shops and landscape maintenance companies are essential. I personally feel its more socially responsible to close the doors and not risk exposure for myself and my clients and employees. Given we are an outside operation in sunny AZ. Two men per site wearing gloves and practicing general distancing. Theres deff some exceptions to this. There is a lot of shared tools and a one time daily trip to the nursery or hardware store.

The Q is. Leave it open and continue to pay employees and taxes or close it down and help flatten the curve.

Frankly I could use a damn break.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:34 pm

Your post says you're a realtor. Is that the business you are asking about?

Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:26 pm

Honestly I don't see an issue with landscape maintenance overall.

The workers are outside and are not really working close together and you don't really interact with the home owners other than maybe to collect the payment? Even that can be kept at a distance, right?

The issue I see would be that the guys are riding in the truck together in close quarters so they could spread it among themselves that way and spread it to their families if one is not known to be infected. For that reason I could see shutting things down for a while if you are concerned or want to protect your employees or yourself.

Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:29 am

A lot of my work is outside. Especially with the warm early Spring this year.
We have Zero "work from home" possibility.

I told my guys, if you can get here, the work is here as is the pay.
Not one of us will be working together but we will be spread out over 30 acres of land.

I have two full time workers.
One shows up, one doesn't.
I have compassion for the non show guy but he is making personal financial choices.
There will not be job loss or punishment for not showing up imposed by me.

Actually knowing that Summer is typically EXTREMELY busy with massive overtime pay, I am paying him 40 hours through this with the understanding that he will work off the pre paid hours as straight time come Summer. Short term financially good for him, long term financially bad for him.
On the down side, He could also quit on me and I will have zero recourse.
But he's been with me 13 years, has two older kids and a newborn at home....... I get it.
I doubt he will hang me out to dry.

We are allowed to work according to Gov Murphy's guidelines.
With the physical separation, gloves, eyewear or masks are a non issue except for protection from physical harm.
We are all in zero INFECTION danger working like this.

The only real worry is an injury requiring medical treatment.
With this in mind, I've laid out non hazardous or extremely low risk tasks.

I've stocked the coffee room and bathroom with sanitary wipes.
Clean it well, before and after, no group gathering, one at a time folks!

Dave

Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:19 am

Dave

I’m doing the same with mine , except they are salaried at the 100k level , at 75% pay. For hourly workers, you can run into trouble when overtime comes in if you have advanced pay. Bottom line, if someone works 60 hours in a 40 hour pay period , you owe them overtime in my State.

like you, I accept risk that they may leave, but I haven’t had anyone leave in 13 years. Taking the best people from stupid employers run by idiots is a passion for me.

Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:33 am

Off topic, but the yearly "Salary" of paying people is horribly abused!

It is often used as a way to get maximum work from a person with no additional outlay off cash.

In NJ there is a very specific guideline for determining if one is actually a Salary or Hourly worker.

Once you start looking at the list you come to realize that the vast majority of salaried workers should be hourly workers...... yet they aren't.

We pay my guys for 52 weeks of 8 hour days. That is 2,088 hours except for leap year. Paid vacation, paid sick time all based on an 8 hour day.

No matter the time of year they get "X" $'s per week...... 40 hours of pay, This keeps them in our employ for the Winter's work load can end up being very minimal at times.

Once they hit 2,088 hours, they get over time pay.

They love it and we're happy to have a consistent work force of faithful people.

Maybe we're fudging the rules just a tad? We've been audited and looked at, no one has said boo and we aren't hiding it.
For my guys to complain? It would be shooting their proverbial golden goose.

Dave

Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:35 am

Not to hijack the thread, but I can't understand how landscapers are considered essential. Here in PA it's 'essential to life' only businesses allowed to be open, yet, landscapers are out in droves. Many of them are immigrant workers who cram 6 or 8 guys in a maxi-cab truck to get to the job, then stand shoulder to shoulder spreading mulch. How is that safe? I'm sure those guys and gals have families at their own homes. I don't get it..

But for the OP: depends. Can you operate safely and still be open? If you're a realtor, a lot can be done on the phone and internet. True, you can't show houses, but video walk-throughs can be substituted. If you're landscaping - buy more tools. That's just cheap insurance. If someone has to go to the store - just one man. Have them wear a mask (warm, I know, but essential) and wipe the interior of the truck down when they get back (steering wheel, shifter, radio knobs etc).

Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:49 am

I am a licensed realtor but am referring to my landscaping operation. I too dont get that we are essential but the Gov has a lot of people to consider when he makes decisions. Construction industry runs AZ and if he wants reelection he needs construction lobbyists and biker gangs to support him.

WE are slammed right now. Have people calling like it was regular spring here in the desert. Ive got two employees per truck, driving around with windows open. Most of the crews are to the site and home. One is doing a lot more driving than the others.

I feel like the risk is minimal in fact I cant remember that last time one of my regular employees was sick with anything (not incl self inflicted). I also have had the same folks for a long time. People rarely quit working for my company. I also have one guy thats chronically late and occasionally calls in sick. He has the typical stresses ( new born, bad financial management). Ive taught more people work ethic than I ever imagined I would. My grandparents would be proud.

But regarding the shit storm Im gonna keep rolling until I find myself on the list of non essentials :roll: and in the mean time ill look into payment options for these guys should something happen that ends our employment.

My first poll has been a real experience so far. Thanks guys.

Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:36 am

If you have the work, do it. The bills ain't gonna stop coming, for you or your team. It's not like you're in constant contact with people when you're digging in the dirt, in fact, hard work tends to make other people go away.

Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:49 am

AZ Landshaper - I'm in Phoenix, and even with Gov. Ducey's proclamation yesterday he has allowed a fair amount of choice. I'm a scientist - not a medical or virologist - and I say your risk is very low at this time. Ducey has permitted golf courses, nail salons, hair stylists to remain open so far. I do expect that to change.

Your employees need to eat too ! I might have them ride in separate vehicles if at all possible, unless they live together.

I'm going out today to refill my two 5-gallon propane cylinders for our grill - how essential is that ???

Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:24 am

You will never get back what you lost. I think in 6 months you will see extreme devastation in life if this shutdown continues. The financial distress will effect far more people than the virus will. If we continue this shelter at home then suicides will start to increase.

We can't let the cure cause more deaths that the virus.

Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:45 am

The fact is, the shutdown will last longer the more imperfect it is. IF we did it 100% (impossible) we'd be done in three weeks. But the more leaky it is, the more vectors will remain, only to re-infect the populations when we call off the shutdown.

Logically, there is low risk from a landscaping operation, and none to residents. As posted, the greatest risk is worker-to-worker. Around here, these are vulnerable people who are not likely covered by the $2T bailout provisions, and probably do not collect unemployment. Separate transportation, no sharing of tools, distancing... all these can minimize the risk. I'd go for it but be very diligent in keeping them safe.

Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:47 am

Maybe looking at essential the wrong way? Somebody has to keep cash moving to breathe some life into the nation's economy.

Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:53 am

djkeev wrote: Off topic, but the yearly "Salary" of paying people is horribly abused!

It is often used as a way to get maximum work from a person with no additional outlay off cash.

In NJ there is a very specific guideline for determining if one is actually a Salary or Hourly worker.

Once you start looking at the list you come to realize that the vast majority of salaried workers should be hourly workers...... yet they aren't.

We pay my guys for 52 weeks of 8 hour days. That is 2,088 hours except for leap year. Paid vacation, paid sick time all based on an 8 hour day.

No matter the time of year they get "X" $'s per week...... 40 hours of pay, This keeps them in our employ for the Winter's work load can end up being very minimal at times.

Once they hit 2,088 hours, they get over time pay.

They love it and we're happy to have a consistent work force of faithful people.

Maybe we're fudging the rules just a tad? We've been audited and looked at, no one has said boo and we aren't hiding it.
For my guys to complain? It would be shooting their proverbial golden goose.

Dave

The issue I find myself in right now is trying to squeeze 50-60 hours of work into 40 hours. When I was offered my current position at the college last fall, I was to be salaried at a certain annual wage, but there were no restrictions on my actual time- if I needed to come in at 7am and work until 7pm fine, and I completely understood and accepted this. However, lots of employees complained that they were being "abused" by this, so as of the beginning of this year (and still not sure if this was a college or state decision, I've heard it both ways)-- and as I understand it a means to stave off being sued-- the college implemented a new rule that even salaried employees must log their actual hours worked so that if our job requires us to work over 40 hours a week we will be compensated. The problem is it was left up to the department heads on how much OT we are actually allowed, and of course my dept head said "ZERO" but he still expects the same amount of work to be done. So all this new rule accomplished for me is putting a 40 hour/ week time restriction on my 50-60 hours of work that I still have to get done. As a result I have had to make "priority" choices and there is always blowback. It ended up hurting the vast majority of salaried employees more than it helped. Haven't gotten up the nerve yet to go face my still relatively new boss about it, but something is going to have to give.
Anyway back to the show-- I voted for the OP to keep the doors open and cash flowing as long as it's considered an essential business.

Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:26 am

djkeev wrote:

We are allowed to work according to Gov Murphy's guidelines.
With the physical separation, gloves, eyewear or masks are a non issue except for protection from physical harm.
We are all in zero INFECTION danger working like this.

The only real worry is an injury requiring medical treatment.
With this in mind, I've laid out non hazardous or extremely low risk tasks.

I've stocked the coffee room and bathroom with sanitary wipes.
Clean it well, before and after, no group gathering, one at a time folks!

Dave while the risk can be minimized, ZERO can be misleading...
Do you track every movement of each individual 24/7? Every person and location they may have come into contact with?

I have a "minimal exposure" risk at my shop. just a couple guys during the day and a couple part time at night. 6000sq/ft to spread out in.
One worker comes from the highest "infected" concentration of the state.
As of last week, I've asked him to not come again until things pass to minimize unnecessary risk.
As cases of the virus have escalated since then, I've done the same with the evening guys.

My auto shop is considered "essential" , however, its not an absolute necessity.

Not knowing who, where, when, the guys are traveling to, in contact with, or exposed to elsewhere, makes an ever present RISK of be infected inadvertently.

did they stop and pump gas on the way in? stop in the convenience store? exchange money? wipe down the door handles?

We are dealing with a life threatening INVISIBLE threat. there really is no way to determine if, when, or where one may be subjected to it.

Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:37 am

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/arizo...091800002/

Each State's Governor has a different Shelter in Place / Stay at Home Order objective.
Heed their decision.
That being said, these are uncertain times, but your talking 30 days.
Your decision is if this will effect you and your business, but AZ has said it's deemed "necessary" making them the responsible party if workers get sick or does it make you responsible, may be worth looking into.
Follow the protocol of safe distancing to keep workers safe and those that you may come in contact with.
My job was deemed "essential" but then with much discussion and a decision was made to deem it non-essential. But... if I wanted to work, they wanted me to sign a release form, excluding them from being responsible for me if I was to contact this virus. Not signing my life away.
So, now I'm laid off due to this Covid-19 crisis.
I've filed for compensation, they don't call it unemployment, it's called workers employment compensation, most $ the US gov't has ever given to laid off workers, 39 weeks and after it's all said and done almost 100% of my weekly pay.
My decision is to Stay Home, Stay Alive, Stay Healthy, Stay Connected.
I want to work and make $ but not if I'm at risk of getting sick or dying.

Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:50 pm

As a home builder for many years I've seen the damage when landscaping ( especially new construction) is deferred. Wind and rain storms causing all kinds of damage. The housing shortage is already acute in many areas, so I can see the "essential" categorization. I've shut my ACVW repair biz, no one really drives these as transportation in my area. I'm a toy service. Technically I could be open under Colorado sheltering laws. I'm trying to adhere to the spirit as well as the letter of the law.

Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:41 pm

I just returned from Discount Tire, got Mrs. Cusser's puncture repaired so she could go on her horse ride tomorrow (towing the horse, and each rider transports their own horse). So I'd guess tire stores are essential, so folks can also get to work safely.

Of course, Arizona's governor declared a Stay Order for the state yesterday, but declared golf courses, nail salons, hair stylists/cutters are essential businesses.

Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:55 pm

As another Arizona resident, Keep the business open as long as possible. Explain the employees to sanitize tools, kinda hard working in the dirt, rock, cactus etc. When in the truck keep windows open. I do realize you want to be in the spirit of the what the Governor spoke about yesterday.
Wife and i took the car for a 60 mile ride, were we bad, we do not feel so as we did not contact anyone. We walk daily out of doors.
Stay safe stay healthy stay connected. Common sense. :)

AZ Governor Executive Order

https://azgovernor.gov/sites/default/files/eo_2021_0.pdf

Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:45 pm

In the end I really don’t give a rats ass what Governor Ducey said. I’m more concerned about social responsibility and not leaving my employees in the lurch or forcing them to work in an environment they think is unsafe. I asked them. Two went home for the time being
And 6 stayed on. Two guys per truck. One in front and one in back and they switch as they see needed. Everyone where’s gloves and we have added dish soap to the list of essentials. Surprisingly they all have their own and are washing enough to complain of dry skin. I’m slammed with work and I have almost all materials delivered or a supplier brings them out
To the trucks. Trying to remain safe and considerate of employees and clients well being.

25/75. I appreciate your input. Every damn one of you. 😷. Stay safe folks.

Lock it up would ya EB?