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Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:06 pm

Some people are just more serious and prefer accuracy in their restorations. And some read Garwood's 'wonderful publication.'

Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:23 pm

ZENVWDRIVER wrote: johnshenry wrote: I agree Garwood is very inaccurate. As for how to know what is right, you just have to find as many sources as you can and make your own conclusion. Garwood is in conflict with many other sources, such as Progressive Refinements and other publications.

Oh, I KNOW you are correct, in your assessment, John - I really don't have enough interest in very early VWs to have MANY sources, on the subject - I already have Garwood's volumes and if somma' that info is incorrect - so be it - i'll bet most of it is not incorrect - i'm learning, from some very knowledgeable enthusiasts.,.

… would love getting a copy of Refinements, but never saw it for sale in my 55 year VW-hobby-life.

We are also big fossil collectors and have many sources for identifying specimens found - there is the ' Progressive Refinements' of the fossil-world too - located a copy, from 1943 on eBay for $900 - has everything one would want to know - but I don't wanna' do that again and Garwood's volumes will suffice - i'll continue to use his info and if i'm incorrect, so be it - i'm sure you all will correct me... thanks again...

z

Let me give you a nickels worth of free advice. If you don't know much about early VWs and all you have to share is from the Garwood book, then stop complaining about people telling you that your source is very flawed.

As Everett posted earlier, you can download Progressive Refinements for free right here on The Samba.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/progressive_refinements/index.php

Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:04 pm

ZENVWDRIVER wrote: I really don't have enough interest in very early VWs to have MANY sources, on the subject - I already have Garwood's volumes and if somma' that info is incorrect - so be it - i'll bet most of it is not incorrect - i'm learning, from some very knowledgeable enthusiasts.,.
z

Zen, if you don't have enough interest in early Vw's to have MANY sources and spend the time (years) it takes to gather all of this accurate information, then you should probably not be contributing to SO many threads in this forum with your info from the Garwood book.

I know you are an enthusiast just like the rest of us, but it does not help the situation when you're so quick to post inaccurate information from that book, often before anyone else has a chance to contribute.

Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:32 am

And that being said, I have found some inaccuracies in PR as well. Between dates and chassis numbers, but the info is solid.

Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:40 pm

I just want to add: Each of us has knowledge, each of us has books or other sources to fall back on it.. And with each inpût, right, wrong or real close to the correct answer( if there is one) , is ok as this give us the chance to argue about .. That way, we learn more from each other and hope we can solve a question. No need to shout or get rude.. We are here on the forum to help each other. Thanks Everett ;-) for giving us the chance to do .

Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:11 pm

Splitdog wrote: And that being said, I have found some inaccuracies in PR as well. Between dates and chassis numbers, but the info is solid.

x2

Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:28 pm

pastellgreen wrote: Splitdog wrote: And that being said, I have found some inaccuracies in PR as well. Between dates and chassis numbers, but the info is solid.

x2

Definitely not perfect but PR is about as good as it gets.

Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:55 pm

splitjunkie wrote: pastellgreen wrote: Splitdog wrote: And that being said, I have found some inaccuracies in PR as well. Between dates and chassis numbers, but the info is solid.

x2

Definitely not perfect but PR is about as good as it gets.

Yes of course. For me it is one of the most important sources.

Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:07 am

Agreed. 'The one'.

Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:43 pm

Here are some pics of this pod. A few things. 1) it is a "standard" pod. Speedo opening is 95mm, not 100, speedo bezel is painted brown not chrome. 2) the speedo has clearly not been "opened" to replace the face as the bezel crimps are fresh and clean not pried open after factory assembly. So the presumption is that this a true early brown face speedo dated April 1949.

So this pod/speedo pre-dates the first true "deluxe" pod with the 100mm chrome speedo and ivory bakelite pod. So the question is, would it have been used in a mid '49 Heb? My assumption is that if there were something "nicer" available, THAT would have been used. But this, in mid '49, was the top of the line part and would have been used in the '49 deluxe, cabrio and Hebs.... until the new ivory pod and chrome 100mm bezel came out in very early 1950....

Then there is the question about the ivory pods shown in the '49 auto show pics. Were they brown (standard) pods painted ivory?

Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:36 pm

sled wrote: ZENVWDRIVER wrote: I really don't have enough interest in very early VWs to have MANY sources, on the subject - I already have Garwood's volumes and if somma' that info is incorrect - so be it - i'll bet most of it is not incorrect - i'm learning, from some very knowledgeable enthusiasts.,.
z

Zen, if you don't have enough interest in early Vw's to have MANY sources and spend the time (years) it takes to gather all of this accurate information, then you should probably not be contributing to SO many threads in this forum with your info from the Garwood book.

I know you are an enthusiast just like the rest of us, but it does not help the situation when you're so quick to post inaccurate information from that book, often before anyone else has a chance to contribute.

… think i'll contribute, as I wish - funny, all you do , concerning me, Mr. Sled is complain about Mr. Garwood, yet you have NEVER, never pointed-out any of his (supposedly) inaccurate information...

… I have learned in life, that the one who complains, the most is usually the one who knows the least - Actually, I'd appreciate any concrete information, from you (or anyone else) pertaining to Car of the Century's inaccurate information - LOL, no one has ever made ONE direct reference - no one, ever...

… May I ask, if anyone believes any of my contributions to be inaccurate - to advise me of the inaccuracies directly and i'll humbly apologize and never make that error again ( after fact-checking) the information...

… I am having a good time here, on thesamba forums and I thank everyone...z

Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:52 pm

splitjunkie wrote: ZENVWDRIVER wrote: johnshenry wrote: I agree Garwood is very inaccurate. As for how to know what is right, you just have to find as many sources as you can and make your own conclusion. Garwood is in conflict with many other sources, such as Progressive Refinements and other publications.

Oh, I KNOW you are correct, in your assessment, John - I really don't have enough interest in very early VWs to have MANY sources, on the subject - I already have Garwood's volumes and if somma' that info is incorrect - so be it - i'll bet most of it is not incorrect - i'm learning, from some very knowledgeable enthusiasts.,.

… would love getting a copy of Refinements, but never saw it for sale in my 55 year VW-hobby-life.

We are also big fossil collectors and have many sources for identifying specimens found - there is the ' Progressive Refinements' of the fossil-world too - located a copy, from 1943 on eBay for $900 - has everything one would want to know - but I don't wanna' do that again and Garwood's volumes will suffice - i'll continue to use his info and if i'm incorrect, so be it - i'm sure you all will correct me... thanks again...

z

Let me give you a nickels worth of free advice. If you don't know much about early VWs and all you have to share is from the Garwood book, then stop complaining about people telling you that your source is very flawed.

As Everett posted earlier, you can download Progressive Refinements for free right here on The Samba.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/progressive_refinements/index.php

… oh, kind sir - I don't believe, I have ever complained - it's not my nature, to complain - I have been using the Garwood publication for 40 years, with much enthusiasm and will continue to do so - i'll bet there are some errors in Garwood's volumes - no one is perfect - thank you for your nickel's worth

Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:21 am

Thanks for sharing John.

I know for sure that on 2nd of march 49, R. RINGEL from the versuchsbauabteilung ( construction departement on special demand) from vw received from konstructionsabteilung ( production line) deluxe set for 4 Hebmullers. THis included all parts as we know the deluxe from june-july and included a 100 mm clock with chrome ring. I can confirm that the dash pods, starter button, sema switch, chocke and heater knob, handbrake knob were for sure ELfenbein (ivory). Not painted.
It was standard that parts from VW were send to the Ringel shop ( versuchsbau) and from there on, to Hebmuller, as they worked under supervision from Rudolf Ringel. All chassis, body and other parts were written out from productiondepartement to versuchsbauabteilung.

Further info: Remember the Geneva auto show Hebmuller that was seen on Bad Camberg years ago, half restored- reconstructed? It was mentioned that it was not made at Hebmuller but in versuchsbau at VW... that was deducted from the Birth Certificate where it was mentioned it was send to that departement. So the owner declared it was not made at Hebmuller but at vw as they could not solve the strenght ...We and the owner now knows that this was incorrect as we found proof that the Geneva car left the Heb factory on a truck towards the Swiss border and Hebmuller officials were present on the Geneva show.
Peter.

Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:56 pm

...this is the first - substantiated and known, to production - According to (the late) JT Garwood this change, occurred at Ch. No. 1-0 106 636, June 1949- the graphics of the speedo face was re designed and a new clock, the same size and with the same graphics, as the new speedo was added to the ever growing standard-equipment list on deluxes - These were optional on the standard models (page 109 - in Car of the Century)… any brown dial speedo, before 6/49 musta' been a pre-production, one-off, mock-up, artistic-idea - not intended for re sale - The presumption is that you, my kind friend, John, have that one prototype - z

Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:10 pm

My late July 49 Standard pod, given the deluxe bling at some point.

Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:37 pm

ZENVWDRIVER wrote: ...this is the first - substantiated and known, to production - According to (the late) JT Garwood this change, occurred at Ch. No. 1-0 106 636, June 1949- the graphics of the speedo face was re designed and a new clock, the same size and with the same graphics, as the new speedo was added to the ever growing standard-equipment list on deluxes - These were optional on the standard models (page 109 - in Car of the Century)… any brown dial speedo, before 6/49 musta' been a pre-production, one-off, mock-up, artistic-idea - not intended for re sale - The presumption is that you, my kind friend, John, have that one prototype - z

That is what in the book.. But:
I wrote before: On the Geneva autoshow, at least 2 cars were there with the export trim A heb and an export version. March 1949... At Hebmuller, all cars got the new deluxe trim, sliding seats, ivory pods with 100 mm clock, small logo hubcabs since the start. I bet more cars at vw got the new trim to be shown in the road show the new cars did from dealer to dealer.

Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:19 pm

Peter Schepens wrote - That is what in the book.. But:
I wrote before: On the Geneva autoshow, at least 2 cars were there with the export trim A heb and an export version. March 1949... At Hebmuller, all cars got the new deluxe trim, sliding seats, ivory pods with 100 mm clock, small logo hubcabs since the start. I bet more cars at vw got the new trim to be shown in the road show the new cars did from dealer to dealer.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

Mr. S. Please forgive my redundancy - Now, I finally understand your point - thanks to you, I am learning a lot about the Hebmuller special-crafted vehicles.

I'm gunna' start a Hebmuller section in my Car of the Century , Volume one book - mostly for our son, who will be receiving all my stuff, in a Trust, when I join Mr. Garwood in eternity...

… you are a wealth-of-knowledge and I am a mere student (of the Buddha - and) of Masters, like you - many thanks for your patience, with me - I don't believe, i'll let you down.

… there are not many with the knowledge-base, you possess - I am also learning who is a genuine-contributor to this early (undocumented) VW and KDF lore - Do you think, there are other-potentially knowledgeable contributors to this subject - ones who will eventually help solve the subject query?

… I really like that you go-out-to-the-edge, when you say, "i'll bet, more cars..." - meaning, to me - that all information (on the subject) is not in written form and that there is room for (knowledgeable) speculation - that is worth it's weight in gold

Again, I thank you - z

Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:36 pm

sinclair wrote:

My late July 49 Standard pod, given the deluxe bling at some point.

What is the speedo opening size? 95 or 100mm? looks like a brown painted chrome bezel, but a deluxe speedo bezel will not fit into a std pod.

Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:39 pm

peter schepens wrote: ZENVWDRIVER wrote: ...this is the first - substantiated and known, to production - According to (the late) JT Garwood this change, occurred at Ch. No. 1-0 106 636, June 1949- the graphics of the speedo face was re designed and a new clock, the same size and with the same graphics, as the new speedo was added to the ever growing standard-equipment list on deluxes - These were optional on the standard models (page 109 - in Car of the Century)… any brown dial speedo, before 6/49 musta' been a pre-production, one-off, mock-up, artistic-idea - not intended for re sale - The presumption is that you, my kind friend, John, have that one prototype - z

That is what in the book.. But:
I wrote before: On the Geneva autoshow, at least 2 cars were there with the export trim A heb and an export version. March 1949... At Hebmuller, all cars got the new deluxe trim, sliding seats, ivory pods with 100 mm clock, small logo hubcabs since the start. I bet more cars at vw got the new trim to be shown in the road show the new cars did from dealer to dealer.

So perhaps none of the three cars with brown face speedos at the March '49 auto show would have been considered "production" vehicles (which I think, is Zen's point) and actual use of the part in line production started 3 months later in June.

Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:50 am

It is normal that on a car show, they show the newest on the shelf.. the new ideas in the building proces had to be tested.. not only for wear and tear but in the case of a speedo, does it look better, is visibilty better than the older model, so a few cars will be equiped and driven by some staff members and main dealers.. That is what is done today also.
In the past, they produced cars, they sat in the field for some time and went on transport to the dealer. Not know how long that took. Today, they produce them and are probably driven directly on a train, boat or truck to ship to the dealer.. or you pick it up in Wolfsburg autostadt... So it is normal that export models were built early in 49 to test, and show to public.

I know from a good source that when the Maybach was re- introduced some years ago in the us, the car for the show was shipped to the us. A back up car was shipped with another boat , just in case something went wrong with the first one.