TheSamba.com :: View topic - What year did " Death foam" first get used?

Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:02 am

Hey folks, I guess to add another part to the question, is where on the car?
Thanks Dan

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:08 am

My guess based on reading old threads: 1965. It was blown in from the interior of the car through a 10mm hole above the wheel - that hole was just left there and then covered with padding and headliner. Here is a picture of the foam after I cut out a larger access hole (original factory hole was inside that large circle at the about 3 o'clock position - you can sort of make it out):

This arrangement did not cause rust problems until the vent windows were added in 1971. These vent windows have an internal panel with a seal. That seal can fail allowing water to invade the cabinet area where the foam exists. The foam does not absorb the water, but it prevents the water from dripping further down to lower areas in that cabinet. The rust forms just above the foam. Had the foam not been there, the rust would have simply formed further down inside that cabinet. Here is a picture of the seal.

The foam itself is not the blame for the rust - the seal is the culprit. Yet, the foam gets labelled unfairly as "death" by everyone. The stuff resists water and was/is probably the best way to insullate that cabinet without absorbing moisture.

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:09 am

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=501103
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=437975

Most everything you want to know but we’re afraid to ask :D

Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:31 am

When people make this foam/rust repair, is something else used to replace the foam with or is that cavity left empty?

Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:45 am

Quote: Here is a picture of the seal.

Could you help me see what I’m looking at? I’m about to remove my foam, and if I can repair that seal while I’m at I’d love to

Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:24 am

creative native wrote: When people make this foam/rust repair, is something else used to replace the foam with or is that cavity left empty?

If you leave the cabinet empty and still have a bad seal, then water will still enter the cabinet and collect further south down by the rocker panels. Probably not a great option. Address the source of the problem (the seal).

Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:28 am

ackerman.vw wrote: Could you help me see what I’m looking at? I’m about to remove my foam, and if I can repair that seal while I’m at I’d love to

To my knowledge, that seal cannot be repaired - it is embedded between the body and the vent window panel. Instead people are applying generous quantities of sealer both above the seal (access through crescent vent opening) and below the seal (access through the hole you need to cut from within). You can then test it by dumping water in there and see if enters the cabinet.

I'll add a picture with a better description of the seal. My paint is dark blue making the black seal hard to pick out.

Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:30 am

Thank you Tom K., I am gathering information on the topic so that when I have the opportunity to address the issue on my '74, I will have a good idea of what I will need to do.

Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:55 am

Here is another picture of the seal. This seal is in good shape, and I had no rust in my '71. I spent a day removing the foam on both sides to find out.

To take that pic, I needed to insert my cellphone into this hole and point up.

Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:58 am

Little stuffed pillows, made from headliner-type material were used previous to the foam. From what I’ve seen here on the Samba, owners construct their own pillows and stuff them into the area where the foam was removed. They do this to keep sound and fumes from entering the cabin.

However, Tom makes a point. If the inner seal issue is not addressed by finding some other means of sealing the area, then the problem will persist.

Fortunately, I have no death foam damage. I do garage my car, so I keep my fingers crossed (in case my seals were not up to snuff.).

Tim

Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:30 am

What goes on under the fuel fill door so often? Is there foam there also?

Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:27 pm

Tim Donahoe wrote: Little stuffed pillows, made from headliner-type material were used previous to the foam. From what I’ve seen here on the Samba, owners construct their own pillows and stuff them into the area where the foam was removed. They do this to keep sound and fumes from entering the cabin

I have considered this option, but could not come up with a good material to stuff the pillows with. Most stuffing will absorb moisture. The "death foam" does not absorb moisture. Once I apply liberal sealant above and below my good seals as a safety measure and then paint the entire cabinet with several coats of Eastman's cavity paint, I plan to simply spray closed cell foam right back in there - but further aft of the vent window (where the pillows originally were placed) to allow me to inspect whenever I want the area under the seals through the inner holes that I cut. I'm also thinking about mounting speakers into those holes.

Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:13 pm

Tim Donahoe wrote: Little stuffed pillows, made from headliner-type material were used previous to the foam. From what I’ve seen here on the Samba, owners construct their own pillows and stuff them into the area where the foam was removed. They do this to keep sound and fumes from entering the cabin.

However, Tom makes a point. If the inner seal issue is not addressed by finding some other means of sealing the area, then the problem will persist.

Fortunately, I have no death foam damage. I do garage my car, so I keep my fingers crossed (in case my seals were not up to snuff.).

Tim

Actually it was headliner material. VW didn’t throw anything away they used the scraps to make the pillows and stuffed smaller scraps of seat material and carpet inside. Genius

My 74 is showing signs of the rust but I’m just going to sit back back and watch.i applaud the heroic efforts others have done to stop it. Realistically I have not the time or inclination to get that deep into it.

Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:35 pm

My 1968 1500 has the headliner pads and no foam.

Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:16 am

In the past I used Great Stuff spray polyurethane foam. All of my VWs past and present had dual carbs. Without the "Death Foam", the carbs intake noise would travel up the open pillars an into the cabin and create a very high noise level. Polyurethane foam is closed cell, which makes it far more resistant to water absorption, than regular foam. When it dries it forms an outer skin that is pretty impervious to water. However, when you trim it and expose the cells, it is still better than regular foam, but it can absorb some water, but dries out pretty quickly

So what I did was just get some small sheet metal pieces, and temporarily attach them at the end of the pillars in the engine compartment. Then spray the foam into the pillars from inside the car. That way the foam retained its skin in the engine compartment, and the excess would be trimmed off in the inside of the car. However, DuPont, has come out with some additional products that are even more water repellant.

https://homeefficiencyguide.com/great-stuff-expanding-foam-waterproof/

Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:06 am

creative native wrote: When people make this foam/rust repair, is something else used to replace the foam with or is that cavity left empty?

Personally I’d leave it empty or make a pillow like older models had. When I was younger I actually enjoyed the sound of dual carbs but over time it no longer matters as hearing loss has taken care of it all. The VW by nature is a noisy car which is not to say you can’t go all around it with dynamat to quiet it down. There was a time late 70s early 80s we didn’t know or care what those pillows were for so we tossed them in the garbage :D

Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:40 pm

what about pool noodles ... creatively carved to fit and maybe enough excess into the engine compartment to once-in-a-while pull it out and let some air circulate in the cavity ?

Wed May 29, 2024 5:58 pm

Tom K. wrote: .... the inner holes that I cut. I'm also thinking about mounting speakers into those holes.

Old post, I know, but this caught my eye - did actually mount speakers in the holes?? If so, can you post a picture and how's the sound??

Wed May 29, 2024 7:08 pm

I haven't yet but still think about it. I like your new avatar.