TheSamba.com :: View topic - reliable Source of Information other than CAR OF THE CENTURY

Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:34 am

Can any one advise the source of unreliable split-era information - 1938 to 3/53?

Many of you have alluded to incorrect information, used by me and I sure would like to be more-correct, when discussing matters with (you) experts. For now, I am referring to regular mass-production information and not special-bodied, non-mass produced type one KDF and VW beetle types, like Hebmuller and etc.

… looking for incorrect information in VW's Progressive Refinements and others.... you know, what others ha, ha, ha...

thanks for any info, you may know about.

Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:00 am

... JT Garwood's 2 volumes of Car of the Century is perhaps VERY under rated - many believe these volumes have many errors and are not a reliable reference - LOL, the ONLY ERRORS are these unfounded opinions, by these so called experts ... Garwood's works may be the ONLY expert ,to rely on...
... although, this thread should not include Garwood - forced to look for other sources...

Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:39 am

You already have a dedicated thread going for possible Garwood errors, please use that if you want to provide input:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=738792

Maybe this thread should be altered for Specific Progressive Refinements issues?

For your Garwood thread:
You could start researching what people have said in the past to post a list or questions in there, here's a Forums search for Garwood errors with possible issues:
Or do a Forum search for Garwood errors, some things come up:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/search.php?searc..._chars=200

Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:15 am

EverettB wrote: You already have a dedicated thread going for possible Garwood errors, please use that if you want to provide input:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=738792

Maybe this thread should be altered for Specific Progressive Refinements issues?

For your Garwood thread:
You could start researching what people have said in the past to post a list or questions in there, here's a Forums search for Garwood errors with possible issues:
Or do a Forum search for Garwood errors, some things come up:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/search.php?searc..._chars=200

Okay, thanks - I have renamed this subject to not include GARWOOD - that should draw a distinct difference in subject matter...

Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:09 pm

The biggest problem with Progressive Refinements was that the cars were not assembled in chassis number order. Blocks of chassis numbers were assigned to export market cars and these were interspersed on the production line with the home market cars. In the mid-1950s, one or two blocks of chassis numbers per month were assigned for the U.S. (and possibly Canadian) markets. This practice continued into the mid-1970s. Karmann-assembled cars got their own blocks of numbers.

Bottom line is unless all the U.S. and Canadian-market cars in a given block were assembled together within a few days, the dates in Progressive Refinements could be off by weeks for export market cars, assuming home market chassis numbers were used to identify the change points.

Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:02 am

janerick3 wrote: The biggest problem with Progressive Refinements was that the cars were not assembled in chassis number order. Blocks of chassis numbers were assigned to export market cars and these were interspersed on the production line with the home market cars. In the mid-1950s, one or two blocks of chassis numbers per month were assigned for the U.S. (and possibly Canadian) markets. This practice continued into the mid-1970s. Karmann-assembled cars got their own blocks of numbers.

Bottom line is unless all the U.S. and Canadian-market cars in a given block were assembled together within a few days, the dates in Progressive Refinements could be off by weeks for export market cars, assuming home market chassis numbers were used to identify the change points.

That is very interesting. Where did you find this information?

Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:03 am

ZENVWDRIVER wrote: EverettB wrote: You already have a dedicated thread going for possible Garwood errors, please use that if you want to provide input:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=738792

Maybe this thread should be altered for Specific Progressive Refinements issues?

For your Garwood thread:
You could start researching what people have said in the past to post a list or questions in there, here's a Forums search for Garwood errors with possible issues:
Or do a Forum search for Garwood errors, some things come up:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/search.php?searc..._chars=200

Okay, thanks - I have renamed this subject to not include GARWOOD - that should draw a distinct difference in subject matter...

You have not removed the name Car Of The Century from the subject so it is pretty much still another Garwood thread.

Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:56 pm

splitjunkie wrote: ZENVWDRIVER wrote: EverettB wrote: You already have a dedicated thread going for possible Garwood errors, please use that if you want to provide input:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=738792

Maybe this thread should be altered for Specific Progressive Refinements issues?

For your Garwood thread:
You could start researching what people have said in the past to post a list or questions in there, here's a Forums search for Garwood errors with possible issues:
Or do a Forum search for Garwood errors, some things come up:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/search.php?searc..._chars=200

Okay, thanks - I have renamed this subject to not include GARWOOD - that should draw a distinct difference in subject matter...

You have not removed the name Car Of The Century from the subject so it is pretty much still another Garwood thread.

… seems we just see things differently, Ms. Junkie - I think it reads >'OTHER THAN', Car of the Century … dah!

Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:43 pm

This time I won't say anything......... :roll:

Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:22 pm

Splitdog wrote: This time I won't say anything......... :roll:

… this is all, very funny to me - with all the complaining all these, so called (hardcore) experts did about the info submitted from THE Car of the Century, by me - advising it , for the most part, is incorrect - and now they have an opportunity to tell-all errors, LOL, they cannot think of anything to submit.

I have been sending PMs to the most childish, of them all, to please submit all the errors, he complained about and nothing - that just shows his insincerity and that he is just an inherent complainer... LOL, I kinda' knew that already.

Can't wait to respond again. as usual to witness the complainers... complaining - Always enjoy your. very fair, comments Mr. Splitdog - thanks again - z

Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:20 pm

I have read probably 12-15 VW books. 'Small Wonder' by Walter Nelson, 'Birth of the Beetle' by Chris Barber, and 'Progressive Refinements' are all top notch books for accurate and detailed info on VW production, manufacturing, and history. As you go along, you get a feel for the truth. If all 3 of these say the same thing about a precise time or chassis number where something changed, I tend to believe it. Progressive Refinements is the Bible for part changes and numbers.
Also, over time I have built 3 splits, an oval, and a '60 single-cab. From scratch. Lenny Copp at West Coast Classics is a friend of mine, and I am at the shop often. It's a mile away. I also am a member of Der Blitzkrieg Kafers and their cars, as well as 'the compound' where they're built, is legendary. It is 3 miles away and I drop by a lot. In the 15 or so years I've been doing this I always try to make a mental note of specific things or changes to something especially mid-production that I have seen at Lenny's, or Pips'. I've literally seen hundreds of high dollar restos in progress and am always looking for something new to learn. And there are other guys on here that know more than me. Anyway, Garwood's book is clumsy, and he doesn't really nail down exact numbers or dates. Get yourself a copy of Chris Barber's book, and you'll be amazed at the difference. These guys on here are telling you the truth. Hope that helps, Jim

P.S. You haven't lived, until you try to pin down a specific change on an early split convertible.

Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:21 pm

Splitdog wrote: I have read probably 12-15 VW books. 'Small Wonder' by Walter Nelson, 'Birth of the Beetle' by Chris Barber, and 'Progressive Refinements' are all top notch books for accurate and detailed info on VW production, manufacturing, and history. As you go along, you get a feel for the truth. If all 3 of these say the same thing about a precise time or chassis number where something changed, I tend to believe it. Progressive Refinements is the Bible for part changes and numbers.
Also, over time I have built 3 splits, an oval, and a '60 single-cab. From scratch. Lenny Copp at West Coast Classics is a friend of mine, and I am at the shop often. It's a mile away. I also am a member of Der Blitzkrieg Kafers and their cars, as well as 'the compound' where they're built, is legendary. It is 3 miles away and I drop by a lot. In the 15 or so years I've been doing this I always try to make a mental note of specific things or changes to something especially mid-production that I have seen at Lenny's, or Pips'. I've literally seen hundreds of high dollar restos in progress and am always looking for something new to learn. And there are other guys on here that know more than me. Anyway, Garwood's book is clumsy, and he doesn't really nail down exact numbers or dates. Get yourself a copy of Chris Barber's book, and you'll be amazed at the difference. These guys on here are telling you the truth. Hope that helps, Jim

P.S. You haven't lived, until you try to pin down a specific change on an early split convertible.

… very interesting credentials - I have read a couppla' the reads on your list - never heard of Lenny or Pips - seems, you've been around - me too, since about 1965 - bet we've followed different paths - can't know it all - I really like the clumsiness and home-made attitude of Garwood's volumes - to me, they are (by far) number one... think I already know the difference...

… I am very into, do-it-yourself projects - not so much into professional-shop-projects as those just take money - everything is based on money - that destructive stuff - Garwood's type of volumes take SKILL - that man was an artist, who produced his own thing - i'm digging that artist-attitude, BIG time...

…" These guys on here are telling you the truth. Hope that helps, Jim" - not terribly impressed with mosta' these hardcore VW-guys - truth is an interesting word - is a word worth pondering - is a word that is very personal - there are as many truths as there are people - everyone has their own definition - to understand someone's truth is to understand that person's overall view …

… Truths are not universal IMHO - So, i'm sure, you are sincere, when you say - 'these guys are telling (me) the truth… I am getting their version and I thank you, for extending your-faith-in-them - guess, i'm just not there yet - would be great, if others with different outlooks, took the time to understand each other's meaning of truth.

… must say, for me, it is important to realize all-truths are valid, but are as different as there are beings - would be great, if we all took the time to understand on another - what a wonderful world, this could be. - z

Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:31 pm

"truth is an interesting word - is a word worth pondering - is a word that is very personal - there are as many truths as there are people - everyone has their own definition - to understand someone's truth
is to understand that person's overall view …"

In a spiritual sense, yes. But in automotive restoration, no. There is only 1 date they started doing something different, and examples, as well as academia support this. Good luck on your endeavors. Jim

Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:12 pm

Splitdog wrote: "truth is an interesting word - is a word worth pondering - is a word that is very personal - there are as many truths as there are people - everyone has their own definition - to understand someone's truth
is to understand that person's overall view …"

In a spiritual sense, yes.AGREE But in automotive restoration, no.AGREE There is only 1 date they started doing something different, and examples, as well as academia support this. > we were discussing so much more than this...

… The do-it-yourself, artistic accomplishments of Garwood are (to me) as good as anyone's accomplishment, is my point - i'm sure we'll be discussing things again as you are one of the more interesting and open-minded guys, in the crowded field... thanks again - z

Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:57 am

I'd like to get a copy. Years ago when I studied Archaology at Uni I was struck by how decades of teaching and general agreement could be turned on their head by a single find. Reputations lost and volumes of official teaching material made worthless. This isn't in the same league, but I guess anything can be right until its proven wrong. Sometimes right just needs to be adjusted or refined for now on its journey to becoming indisputable fact.

Was it Newton who said he only saw further because he was standing on the shoulder of giants? :)

Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:03 am

sinclair wrote: I'd like to get a copy. Years ago when I studied Archaology at Uni I was struck by how decades of teaching and general agreement could be turned on their head by a single find. Reputations lost and volumes of official teaching material made worthless. This isn't in the same league, but I guess anything can be right until its proven wrong. Sometimes right just needs to be adjusted or refined for now on its journey to becoming indisputable fact.

Was it Newton who said he only saw further because he was standing on the shoulder of giants? :) Isn't it amazing that the further we get away from the production of the cars, the more we know about them? The power of the internet and putting a couple thousand knowledgeable minds together is an amazing thing.

The most reliable source of information is the collective knowledge of the people on thesamba. It can draw on thousands of minds and hundreds of libraries. If you are not sure about something, just search, and then ask.

Garwood's books are a secondary source which is old, and out of print, never updated and not very available to most people. It might be a data point for some things, but he got his information somewhere, and any information from any source should be verified against other sources.

Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:43 am

updated Lind wrote:
A fairly reliable source of information is the collective knowledge of the people on thesamba. It can draw on thousands of minds and hundreds of libraries. If you are not sure about something, just search, and then ask.

Garwood's books are an unchanging source which is old, out of print,[b],but has been [/b updated . and just may be the premier single-source of information, in existence... So, one can ask, thesamba members, at large or refer to the unchanging (by serial number, dates and other unchanging info) source in Car of the Century and others...

Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:30 pm

splitjunkie wrote: janerick3 wrote: The biggest problem with Progressive Refinements was that the cars were not assembled in chassis number order. Blocks of chassis numbers were assigned to export market cars and these were interspersed on the production line with the home market cars. In the mid-1950s, one or two blocks of chassis numbers per month were assigned for the U.S. (and possibly Canadian) markets. This practice continued into the mid-1970s. Karmann-assembled cars got their own blocks of numbers.

Bottom line is unless all the U.S. and Canadian-market cars in a given block were assembled together within a few days, the dates in Progressive Refinements could be off by weeks for export market cars, assuming home market chassis numbers were used to identify the change points.

That is very interesting. Where did you find this information?

I have been to way too many car shows where I have run across cars where the chassis numbers are way too close to cars I have owned to be coincidence.

For example, every 1975 Model 110 I've seen has a chassis number from the same block of numbers, which suggests only a single, brief production run ever took place.

Another example involves cars with chassis numbers between 1-0745900 and 1-0747000, assembled in Oct-Nov 1954--they are nearly all U.S. or Canadian-market cars.

Somebody with some free time and ambition could build a database identifying every block of numbers by month down to the nearest 1000 for U.S. market sedans, from the earliest Hoffman cars to 1977. It's harder now than in the past, with the reluctance to post chassis numbers. However, some of the older registries may still be out there that will back up my theory.

Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:15 am

janerick3 wrote: splitjunkie wrote: janerick3 wrote: The biggest problem with Progressive Refinements was that the cars were not assembled in chassis number order. Blocks of chassis numbers were assigned to export market cars and these were interspersed on the production line with the home market cars. In the mid-1950s, one or two blocks of chassis numbers per month were assigned for the U.S. (and possibly Canadian) markets. This practice continued into the mid-1970s. Karmann-assembled cars got their own blocks of numbers.

Bottom line is unless all the U.S. and Canadian-market cars in a given block were assembled together within a few days, the dates in Progressive Refinements could be off by weeks for export market cars, assuming home market chassis numbers were used to identify the change points.

That is very interesting. Where did you find this information?

I have been to way too many car shows where I have run across cars where the chassis numbers are way too close to cars I have owned to be coincidence.

For example, every 1975 Model 110 I've seen has a chassis number from the same block of numbers, which suggests only a single, brief production run ever took place.

Another example involves cars with chassis numbers between 1-0745900 and 1-0747000, assembled in Oct-Nov 1954--they are nearly all U.S. or Canadian-market cars.

Somebody with some free time and ambition could build a database identifying every block of numbers by month down to the nearest 1000 for U.S. market sedans, from the earliest Hoffman cars to 1977. It's harder now than in the past, with the reluctance to post chassis numbers. However, some of the older registries may still be out there that will back up my theory.

That's a pretty complex theory to present as fact.

Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:57 am

janerick3 wrote: Blocks of chassis numbers were assigned to export market cars and these were interspersed on the production line with the home market cars. In the mid-1950s, one or two blocks of chassis numbers per month were assigned for the U.S. (and possibly Canadian) markets. This practice continued into the mid-1970s. Karmann-assembled cars got their own blocks of numbers.

this would surely seem to be sensible business practice so that batches of parts unique to different markets could be on hand and also that consignments of cars were ready to ship out with minimal delay to turnaround in port. quite a major logistical exercise and it would be interesting to know if there were any slip ups with cars ending up in the wrong place