TheSamba.com :: View topic - Fuel line routing for new fuel cell installation

Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:08 pm

The battery fits in that space, but its tight. Had to pass it up in there from underneath. I don't know if I can get a battery box in there too. Maybe have to make some removable sheet metal panels to protect it when it's strapped down. Here's a few pictures of the battery in the planned relocation spot and a cardboard template for the shelf. I'll weld some tabs onto the tubular members to mount the shelf, then figure it out from there.

Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:18 pm

Hopefully the wiring doesn't become too much work to re-modify. I would also suggest a few drain holes under the battery shelf to help water/dust to fall out.

Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:46 am

Have you given any thought to a smaller battery?, like an Odessey 925. We run them in our Meyers Manx DSBE.

Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:37 am

Hi Manxvair!

I definitely considered something like that. But I think it still makes sense to move the battery if only to get it spaced away from the fuel cell. The wiring on this buggy has been customized by previous owners, and it doesn't seem anything close to stock anymore... I've had to chase down numerous (i.e. MANY!) electrical shorts since I bought it, and I'm pretty familiar with what goes where at this point.

I had a few initial concerns in moving the battery, the main one was if the cable to the starter needed to be upgraded from 4 gauge. I've researched a bit about that and I think it will be fine. The other concern I had was protecting the battery in the new location, but I think I have a battery box solution figured out, and I also think the roll cage members in that spot along with my planned steel tray will give it enough armor.

Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:46 pm

I agree on the more compact battery in the 1st place (now that you've spent the $$$ on the Optima. The location is fine. Protection is a good idea. Make CERTAIN that no matter what the battery will NOT interfere with the tie rod before you weld things in place.

To check roll cage wall thickness, drill a small hole (just barely bigger than the depth gauge of your calipers...like 3/16"), measure with that depth gauge, then measure the OD of the tube in the same area (the end of the caliper should be in line with the tube, not across it). The difference will be the wall thickness. If the car weighs over 2,000lbs when ready to race, the cage main members:
- A-Pillars
- B-Pillars
- C-Pillars (rear braces)
- Windshield header
- B-Pillar header
- Lateral Diagonal Bar
should be 1.5 x .120 or 1.75 x .095.

The other cage tubes are not controlled by the rules. So dash bar, shoulder strap bar, door bars may be 1.5 x .095. The shoulder bar should NOT be smaller than that.

All joints of the roll cage that involve the main members MUST be welded 360°. So reach your fingers up around the upper side of the joints in the top to make sure. Note that MOST Tech Inspectors don't know enough to EVER check that. But I always have. And remember it's your head inside of there. For over 50 years I've been amazed at how many racers really do NOT understand that roll cage, harness, driving suit and helmet rules are there to protect THEM! Those rules are not about the Tech Inspectors bullying and exerting control over the poor, innocent racers, believe it or not.

Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:00 am

Thank you DustyMojave. I'm almost finished on the battery relocation. The Optima fits in the front area, but it is very tight. I have about 2 inches of clearance from the tie rod; I checked and rechecked and I think it will be good to go. I can always move to the Odyssey battery if I need to should it turn out to be an issue.

I welded in some mounting tabs to the cage members for my steel battery tray, and the battery ties down with some 5/16ths threaded rods. It's pretty solid and I was happy to find a small Group 24 marine battery box that fit in that space (after cutting it down a little bit.. ). Here are some pictures:

After some soul searching and internal reflection, I upgraded the battery cables as well. I went with 1/0 size wire... I wanted to go to 2 gauge but couldn't find any off the shelf in my area. The large size wire turns out to be hard to work with, which is why it's taken some time since my last post. but I'm almost finished with the relocation/ rewire, so I can get focused again on the fuel cell. I feel good about moving the battery; its allowing me to move some wiring from the passenger side floorboard that I've been worried about- it will all run in the area under the hood now, so I think it's a step forward in terms of safety.

I'm glad to get some more information on the roll cage specs; I'll complete the battery relo and fuel cell remount, and will then focus on roll cage and seat upgrade. Lots to do! But I'm having fun doing it! Thanks!

Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:44 pm

Have gotten a little sidetracked with work and some other stuff... but I’ve made a little more progress. I felt that I needed a solenoid for my winch. The winch I bought a few months ago has a remote controller but did not have a positive ‘off’ for the input power. So I added a universal solenoid and tied it to a rocker switch on the dash. Also added an LED light that flashes when the solenoid is powered. Good stuff I think; I can completely isolate the winch from the battery now, and will see a light when it’s ‘armed’ so to speak. While I was at it, I added a remote jumper point to make it easier to hook up a battery maintainer or get a jump if needed. It’s probably an odd place for it but i seem to have run out of space for new accessories.

I’ve also removed the fuel cell and the old mount in preparation for moving it further downward. Will post pics as that comes along. Here’s some pics of the solenoid and remote jump point, located opposite of the battery on the drivers side.

Wed Nov 11, 2020 7:09 pm

All right- i finally got that fuel cell relocated. As Matt and DustyMojave suggested, I moved it forward off of the back shelf and downward as far as possible. As you see in the pictures I had to make a cradle for the cell to sit in, and it’s connected to the roll cage (using the stubs of the old square tube member that was removed to make room) and also to the pan and the body. It seems quite sturdy and is half welded half bolted so I can take the cell out if needed in the future. The filler neck hose no longer tries to kink, and i think the lower positioning of the cell is a huge improvement. I was also careful to leave enough clearance for the addition of a diagonal tube member in the rear hoop of the roll cage, and I’ll have that done in the future.

Also added the Harmon discriminator valve and routed the vent line as suggested in earlier posts. The vent line now exits behind the drivers seat near the floorboard and terminates at a small breather valve air filter mounted on top of the torsion bar tube near the rear drivers side wheel. Hard to see in the picture but if you zoom in, it’s there.

The fuel line itself is made up with braided line with 6an fittings and exits to the rear via a firewall pass through fitting. Way better and seems much safer than my first attempt. In the pics you can see that it comes out near the oil filter in the engine area (see the blue and red Russell fitting where it connects to the firewall pass through) and is then routed down along the side of the fan shroud to connect with the fuel filter before heading over to the stock pump and carb.

I got it started up today and ran it for 30 minutes with only a few issues. First, when I added some gas the filler neck hose leaked through a little at one of the joints, and the clamp required a little tightening (no further issues after that). Second (and quite embarrassing), I had forgotten to open the new fuel line shut off valve that I added, and spent an hour trouble shooting why the pump wouldn’t draw fuel. I even called a supplier and ordered a Facet electric fuel pump thinking I’d need to install it to make the car run; then I took one more look at everything and realized my error. After opening the valve and using some starter spray, the fuel pump finally drew out some fuel from the cell and the car idled for 30 minutes with no issues. I felt like an idiot but was very happy the stock pump is able to pull gas. Test drive planned for tomorrow.

Please comment if you see anything that needs some attention! Thanks everyone for all of your help! It’s truly appreciated!

Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:29 am

Hey this is an easy one for ya! The Wright rack used old solid rubber end caps new, apparently (wasn't born yet, no proof) but the SACO bellows end boots work if you add a little spacer on the bottom. I have driven my Chenowth hard enough to visit the doctor afterwards and the little booties didn't fall off so I think they're good.

Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:16 pm

Thanks so much Jimmyhoffa! The front end definitely needs some attention. Steering box will get some attention soon and I'll add those end boots. I also just dropped $200 on hoses and fittings to add nitrogen to the front shocks; they are currently less than 10 psi as far as I can tell (yikes) but should be refilled soon. Theres no data plate, but they are 2" in diameter.. I think that means they are Fox 2.0's. Anyways.. I plan to fill them to 200 PSI to see how they run. Anything will be better than how they are right now.

These old cars just eat up money, don't they?!? Cheers my friend and thank you for the comment!

Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:06 pm

"These old cars just eat up money, don't they?!? "

And we're all JUST the guys to help you spend it!

:shock: :oops: :roll: :lol: 8)

I'm not real keen on the fuel cell supports to the sheet metal floor pans. I'd prefer cage structure or something else more substantial. One bang of the floor panel on a rock or other Terra Firma could cause you issues. A Vee out from the lower sides of the tunnel could work. A full 30 gallon fuel cell is close to 200lbs, multiplied by a few times that in G's when you bang the bottom of the car on something. And I would also gusset under or above those side stubs to the cage side bars.

The vent routing looks good. YES, I DID see the outlet under the torsion housing.

Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:06 pm

Thanks Richard- When I add that cross member to the rear hoop I’ll also add on those gussets and figure out another connection to the roll cage for the fuel cell to rest on. That’s gonna happen in early 2021; in the meantime I’m gonna run some trails over the holidays and I’m sure some other “improvement opportunities” will arise.

If you will indulge me on another off topic issue... i could use some carburetor advice. I’ve seen some other threads on thesamba on this topic and I have some thoughts. The issue is my EMPI 38 EGAS synchro will not idle while coming to a stop. I rebuilt it in the spring and have tried to tune it probably 10 times and the issue has never fully resolved. When approaching a stop I have to heel-toe over and over to keep the engine running until it’s stopped and then it’s 50/50 at best whether it will idle or die. I’m at the point that I think an upgrade is in order. The carb came with the bug when I bought it; it’s a single carburetor mounted on a 1915cc engine. I’m considering a Weber 40 IDF or maybe some version of a Holley just to hopefully start with a clean slate and a higher quality carburetor. Hoping y’all have some recommendations and some wisdom to share.. which carb should I replace it with?

Thanks y’all! Here’s some carb pics of the current set up-

Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:19 pm

This is directed to Jimmy Hoffa about what Cecil Wright used for boots on end of rack & pinion.
The original boots on the rack were Super Beetle steering shaft boots that Cecil machined aluminum caps that fit in the round open ends.
I used a Wright rack on my Funco SS II I built and raced from 1977 racing the original Class 9 1200cc limited engine class.

Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:30 pm

jsturtlebuggy wrote: This is directed to Jimmy Hoffa about what Cecil Wright used for boots on end of rack & pinion.
The original boots on the rack were Super Beetle steering shaft boots that Cecil machined aluminum caps that fit in the round open ends.
I used a Wright rack on my Funco SS II I built and raced from 1977 racing the original Class 9 1200cc limited engine class.

Since I worked with my dad, Jack Parcells, to do an awful lot of post-race inspections of Class 9 1200cc engines in that era, if you placed near the front, regardless of the organization, there is a good chance that I inspected your engine. The engine rules for the class were written on my dinner table by my dad with visits often by Mickey Thompson and 1200 racers such as Jean Calvin for their input.

Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:16 pm

For the carb, on an offroad car, I had pretty good success with my center mounted 40mm IDF on my 1915. 28-30mm venturis worked the best on my FAT performance intake system. I am trying the single Zenith 32NDIX now, and I have heard a lot of positive things about that setup, even on bigger engines than mine! I'm sure Dusty and the other vintage boys will chime in on that. :D

jsturtlebuggy, that is a cool bit of history! I love all that stuff, and have a good collection of old school parts going. Watching the innovation unfold through the years is really something I enjoy. I am almost done restoring a set of Neal rear disc brakes for my car, which is a little bit of history in itself.

Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:28 pm

I haven't read this whole thread but recognized the carb - it looks to be basically Empi's version of the Weber 38/38 DGAS. I don't know to what usage your engine is built (race or street) but the 38 sync is more of a race carb than a street carb. The barrels are sync'd because it is intended to run pretty wide open.

I'm not saying you can't run it on the street, people do, but it takes a good deal of tuning to make it work. For street the Weber 32/36 (progressive) is a better choice. That said . . . you will read A LOT about people who didn't get them to work. Usually, when asked, I've found that people just bolted them on and expected them to be perfect. Considering the wide variety of engines they cn be put on that isn't realistic. The Webers are made to be tuned properly - that is how you get good performance out of them.

Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:26 pm

This buggy is street legal right now, and I’m planning to use it mainly for off road fun running and as a pre runner (a family member has a race team and I’m planning to bring this car out to one of their future events). I of course also have some high hopes to get it in race shape over the next few months if possible.. because why not! But I still have lots of prep to finish before I could safely enter a race event. The input that I’ve received on this thread has been INCREDIBLY helpful.

I’ve learned the hard way like you said that carb tuning is pretty challenging (I’ve definitely learned what not to do !). That makes sense what you said about the difference between a street purposed carburetor and race purposed carbs. I didn’t think about that before you mentioned that in your above post, L5wolvesf. The current EMPI 38/38 EGAS carb was very gummed up when I rebuilt it earlier this year, and based on your comments and some of the other threads I’ve been reading, I think it makes sense to move over to a Weber 40 IDF. Even tho that’s probably not the best choice for street driving, I think it fits best with what I have in mind for this car. Also it seems like others have had success with that model on similar engines and I’m hoping I’ll have better tuning results overall.

I’ll continue to update this thread with my results/ misadventures with all the projects I’m working through. Thanks very much Jsturtlebuggy, Jimmyhoffa and L5wolvesf for taking the time to comment and giving me your thoughts on the carburetor and on the steering box!

Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:47 pm

I had a chance to field test the baja bug last weekend. We had some unexpected snow out here in west Texas but we got some good runs in the day before and a few in after the snow until it was too slick to drive down some of the ranch roads. Lots of fun with the bug and with our other vehicles but we definitely had some issues.

Of note, a friend of mine was driving and oversteered into a tight turn (this was before the snow came and the dirt roads were still dry). The bug drifted *unintentionally* but made a great turn and felt pretty stable. It came out of the drift just fine and we continued down the road. I think this was a testament to the relocation of the fuel cell into the lower position. It had two passengers and the fuel tank was 100% full and the bug kept her tires down and felt solid in a tight turn at speed on a dirt road. Pretty good advice on that fuel cell placement, gentlemen….

The carburetor was a huge issue though. I haven’t installed the new Weber IDF, so am still running the EMPI 38/38 DGES. It would not consistently idle no matter how much tuning we did… I know that many people have trouble tuning these and I am definitely one of them. The weather was cold but the electric choke was operating fine and I think we gave it ample time to warm up each day. But overall it would not keep up the RPM’s unless you were driving it wide open or close to wide open. And often I’d have to pat the throttle to coax the RPM’s up when the engine started dying. I’ve heard this problem called “The Bog”, and I had it big time… maybe especially since the temp was in the upper 30’s lower 40’s.

The other issue was that fuel seemed to be collecting occasionally in the bowl and would proceed to burn off unexpectedly when the vehicle was slowing to a stop… we’d be slowing down (usually coasting to a stop with clutch all the way in) and all of a sudden the RPM’s would climb to about 2500-3000 without adding any throttle. RPM’s would stay up like that for maybe 8-10 seconds and then it would proceed to drop off again and the engine would die. It would do this when slowing to a stop after driving for a bit and also while we were tuning the carburetor trying to get a good idle. Man, it was frustrating. Looking forward to installing the new Weber IDF next month and hopefully starting with a clean slate! Maybe I also need to add an electric fuel pump and pressure regulator.

Here’s some pics; despite the snow and mechanical issues we managed somehow to have a great weekend

Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:29 pm

After some further reading, it seems that hesitation & runaway RPM issue from my field trip was probably the carburetor icing. It didn't occur to me at the time, but the temps were in the upper 30's and it was snowing, so lots of moisture in the air and slushy snow on the ground, and my bug has no preheat for the carb at all.

I've got a nice custom exhaust on this car that I'm hesitant to modify, but it seems to be a fairly common modification for baja bugs, so I ought to go ahead and do it while I'm putting in the new carburetor. Here is a pic of the exhaust; from all of the threads I've read, it seems I should plumb the heat riser inlet into the exhaust off of #2 and the outlet somewhere near the collector but upstream of the muffler

And here's a few of the threads I've been reading to get an idea how to do it:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...p;start=20

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=333608

Has anyone had any issues or experience with this? Please comment if you have a moment! Thanks!

Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:42 pm

Just finished that carburetor swap. Gone is the EMPI 38 DGES; replaced with a Weber 44 IDF. The specs are basically right out of the Tomlinson Tech manual for a single Weber 44 on a 1915cc engine. 36mm venturis, 170 main jets, 165 air correction jets, F11 emulsion tubes, 65 idle jets, 70 accelerator pump jets (had to drill out 55’s with a micro drill to make them 70’s). Also installed a zero bypass valve in the bowl, added the idle air extension tubes and added a taller bowl vent. This set up seems to be perfect; no problems getting it running and did a quick tune; the car ran perfectly on the test drive and I had no issues maintaining idle like i was with the old carb.

Of note, I sleeved the intake manifold so that they actually slide into the end castings right where the intake boots sit (sleeved down from 1-1/2” to 1-3/8” I think.. can’t remember and forgot to write it down- oops). It seems very solid this way. The kit instructions said to leave a gap where the intake tubes meet the end casting and to rely on the boots to hold it all in place, but I read several threads that said a smaller ID sleeve helps alot in the case of a single carb. More velocity through the intake to help keep the fuel atomized, and will also help prevent fuel standoff. I don’t think I was experiencing standoff before but anyway this should help if it ever started that issue.

The other thing I did was add heat risers. I took two sets of stock pre heat tubes and cobbled together some custom tubes along with a little bit of steel conduit. I welded the inlet end right off the #2 exhaust, then it runs through the intake manifold preheat channel, then out the other side through another tube to rejoin the exhaust right upstream of the muffler. Everywhere I read about preheat on TheSamba, people say this is one of the main features that you need to help prevent carb icing and to keep the engine running happy. I did a test drive after finishing the carb install, and the preheat tubes were nice and hot on both sides, so i think this will be a good upgrade..

Next up- Valve cover vents w/ a breather box setup, replacement seats and modify the roll cage with a diagonal member. I’m going to go with some Corbeau seats. Not suspensions seat tho. I’ve heard in certain conditions that suspension seats can actually bottom out and injure its occupant. So I’ll go with a fixed seat and see how it goes.

Here’s some pictures! Please comment if you have any feedback!