TheSamba.com :: View topic - Are German Bosch blue ignition coils worth the extra expense ?

Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:28 pm

:?: Wow! I certainly got a lot of insight regarding my German Bosch coil question. But this, imho is a good thing. I can refer to this discussion when the time comes to find a spare coil for my”travel repair kit “. I am now inclined to basically look for a free, or next to free, spare ignition coil from any number of gearhead friends.
Without causing an argument, I have never felt a need for a magnetic pickup type of-distributor. Points ( German Bosch ) are already in with my”spares”, and I have never had any trouble setting them to the proper gap.
An inexpensive burnishing tool can often at least get a person home in the unlikely ( imho ) chance that the points fail. Also, a breaker points condenser
( as many [ most ] of you know ) is simply a capacitor, and imho not much difference will be noted ( if any ) by swapping a good, usable one with a seemingly “better” one. If your breaker points are wearing out rapidly, you need a new condenser. If your points are lasting fine, then your condenser is fine also. So for now at least, I’ll be keeping my distributor stock.
In my 41 years of car ownership I have never had a coil or condenser go bad. However, breaker points leave a microscopic particle of contact material
on one side of the points contacts, and a pit of equal size ( minute ) on the other contact point of the breaker points, which are always made of more
robust/better suited material for arcing with a minimum of this metal transfer that happens every time a spark is discharged from the ignition coil.
So thank you all for sharing your knowledge. I will keep using a “normal duty” ignition coil, and set my savings aside for more useful repairs or upgrades. Ditto to my distributor innards. Why mess with success ?
Thanks all for the overwhelmingly good feedback!
Darren.
PS- I had not received an email informing me of even a single reply, so I must have forgotten to press “post” after previewing my question ( without previewing my posts and/or replies, I constantly spell words incorrectly and at times I even miss entire words ). Peace, my VW friends ☮️.

Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:41 am

bnam wrote: modok wrote: According to ancient legends

the standard coil had 80-1 turns ratio
the blue coil has 100-1
They were made in Germany and filled with PCB oil which is toxic but made them immortal.

What modern equivalent is closest to each? I have no idea.
IMO.... Go old, or go new. Don't try to copy the past.

(a) I had read elsewhere that Bob Hoover said that Black and Blue coils were essentially the same
(b) The black coils were epoxy filled I thought. There are some blue coils that are oil filled. But are all blue coils oil filled? If so, do they have to be mounted upright?
A-no
B-Hate to point out the obvious but....
If it was encased in epoxy, then it would not need to be in a soup can.
Mounting your soup cans upright might be a good idea but there should be no need. If it were to leak then maybe that would prolong the failure, seems like a good idea.
I'm running a Japanese one made in 1975 and it's mounted sideways and working fine. It will fail someday, maybe , not going to worry about it. When it goes, it goes.
It's not blue but I could paint it. The color codes were a great idea but they didn't really last long. Bosch eventually had hundreds of different part numbers for coils, tho IMo they make no sense and I haven't been able to crack the code. Most of them are black, but some are silver, a few are red, and of course blue. Some of them have plastic hats.

yes some canister coils are epoxy filled but I don't think many of them were OE.

Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:31 am

:) Hi modok, without the aid of expensive electronic test equipment, we have to rely on tests that can be made with ( digital ) multimeters. Also known as
volt-ohm-milliammeter. First though, we need to understand that the positive
( + ) terminal on an ignition coil is common ( connected directly to ) to both the primary and secondary windings. With this in mind, we can electrically compare ignition coils to determine if they are significantly different from each other or identical to each other...electrically.
By placing your meter on the lowest ohms scale we can connect one end of
the meters test leads to this positive ( + ) terminal and the other test lead to the negative ( - ) terminal. Then we write down the reading.
Now we do the exact same thing with the other coil. Again we write down the reading. This reading tells us how much resistance there is in each primary
Winding of either coil.
If these numbers differ by more than about 0.1 ohms, then characteristically these two ignition coils are different. The greater the difference in meter readings, the more characteristically these two ignition coils are from each other. A typical reading for the primary windings is between 2 and 4 ohms.

Now we can measure and compare the two ignition coils via testing the resistance of the secondary windings. These are measured with the test meter still set to measure ohms of resistance, but the readings will be much higher, so the meter function control is set a about 1000ohms ( instead of fractions of
single ohms ).
The electrical terminals for the secondary windings is the Center, spark plug Receptical copper inside the Center high tension lead, and the positive
( + ) marked terminal is the other connection point.
So by reading the ohms from the Center, high tension spark plug wire connector, to the positive ( + ) coil terminal, we get a secondary coil resistance
reading. Now repeating this with the second ignition coil tells us that if they read the same, as well as the primary coil readings, then electrically these two ignition coils are identical.
On the other hand, if these readings differ by more than about 3 or 4 %,
then these two ignition coils are not similar enough to swap out without risk of
coil failure, premature spark plug wear ( tip erosion ), spark strength, and a number of other things.
Well, as they say in Hollywood, that’s a wrap! Time for me to get some sleep. It’s 7:30 am here...omg !
Have a great day all!
Darren.

Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:47 am

Yes in many cases, comparing two similar coils... if the turns ratio is higher, so is the secondary resistance because.....they used the same size wire just more turns of it. I love the simplicity. :wink:

I don't recall the secondary resistance specs of the blue coil Vs factory ones but I'm pretty sure it followed that trend.

Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:01 am

The difference is between the oil filled and gel/epoxy filled.

Oil filled transformers, which is what you find on the utility pole outside is a tried and true method and has been around for a very long time.

I've heard you shouldn't turn the oil filled coils upside down. In the engine bay many folks turn their coils upside down.

The gel filled coil is approximately twice the price of an oil filled coil.

There was a bad batch of coils out a while back. There were also some counterfeits. I suspect the quality issues folks saw were due to those. If it cost less than $40 don't buy it. This is close to the cost Bosch charges.

Bosch, guarantees their parts for 2 years and is willing to warranty them as such. Not all suppliers will stand behind this guarantee.

There is only one Bosch Super Blue coil.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1776803.jpg

Mon Apr 10, 2023 3:13 pm

Where did all the Bosch 00012 blue coils go?
Can't find a single vendor that has any, I see some in classifieds and on ebay but too pricey for me
Thx

Mon Apr 10, 2023 3:18 pm

Bosch stopped making them. There is a chance they might do one final run. I have an order in with them for a few hundred. I've been waiting on that order for a while now and it keeps being pushed.

Mon Apr 10, 2023 3:20 pm

Wow that SUCKS. I knew they weren't made in Germany anymore but didn't know they had stopped making them altogether.
Please keep me posted if u get another batch! Looks like otherwise I would have to go with the inferior Petronix. :cry:
Thx!

Mon Apr 10, 2023 3:25 pm

I thought your coil tested ok with the multimeter. Did you find something wrong with it?

If you want a deal I have some new Beru oil filled coils that have small dents on the bottom - $10 each.

Mon Apr 10, 2023 3:35 pm

heimlich wrote: I thought your coil tested ok with the multimeter. Did you find something wrong with it?

I have some new Beru oil filled coils that have small dents on the bottom - $10 each.

I tend to agree with you, but it tested OK with the meter when cold.
That doesn't necessarily mean there isn't something wrong with it that would cause it to go bad when warmed up. That's why a resistance test on the coil can be inconclusive and a problem when diagnosing a problem like what I experienced.
My other car is a 2013 Outback, I got it for $2200 because it was throwing a code for the torque converter lockup solenoid on the valve body, and the local dealer told the couple who was selling it that the solenoid tested fine so it needed a whole new transmission. I bought it, got it home and test the solenoid and they were correct it tested within resistance specs. But it would throw that code whenever driven and the CVT fluid warmed up where it sat inside the tranny. Ordered a refurbished valve body off ebay and did the swap and 100% fixed.
So it is quite possible there is a problem with the windings inside the coil that ONLY presents itself when the engine is warmed up and under load-- and why the only way to 100% for certain test the coil theory is to drive it out on the interstate at 70mph again until it stalls out on me and then take a reading, putting myself in a non too convenient situation once again.
So instead of putting myself in that precarious situation again, I just figured I'd spend the $70-$80 on another coil- until I found out they aren't made anymore and one would cost me way more than that.
I guess just in order to test I would be fine with picking up one of those Beru coils from you. Are they epoxy or oil filled? I've heard you cannot mount an oil filled upside down like the epoxy, that's how my mounts are.

Mon Apr 10, 2023 3:41 pm

sb001 wrote: I'd spend the $70-$80 on another coil

Way too much. I was paying less than $40 for them from Bosch. It doesn't help since there aren't any now.

Mon Apr 10, 2023 3:44 pm

heimlich wrote: sb001 wrote: I'd spend the $70-$80 on another coil

Way too much. I was paying less than $40 for them from Bosch. It doesn't help since there aren't any now.

Yes I remember the days when I got a whole Bosch tuneup kit (coil, plugs, wires, condenser) from Roy Rogers in Little Rock for $50. In fact I think this is still the same coil from that set.
Every vendor that still has a price listed show them for $70-$80, no less, but I was still willing to pay that and chalk it up to inflation. I can't go up to the classifieds/ ebay asking prices though, well over $100.
I'll send you a PM

Mon Apr 10, 2023 3:48 pm

Quote: If you want a deal I have some new Beru oil filled coils that have small dents on the bottom - $10 each.

Where would I order these. I’d like 3 if available..

Mon Apr 10, 2023 4:09 pm

FixinBettyBug wrote:
Where would I order these. I’d like 3 if available..

Send me an email or message.

Mon Apr 10, 2023 4:26 pm

heimlich wrote: FixinBettyBug wrote:
Where would I order these. I’d like 3 if available..

Send me an email or message.

Done. Thanx!

Mon Apr 10, 2023 4:46 pm

When I started working on my bug, overhauled the engine, and replaced the original distribuitor with a Pertronix SVDA distribuitor, and re-used the aftermarket coil, which came with the car.
Works perfectly, so far.

Tue Apr 11, 2023 10:12 am

Welp I just apparently found the ONE vendor left who still had any blue Bosch 00012 coils available at a reasonable (for this scenario) price-- $85 each. He had 4 of them left so I ordered all 4.

Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:41 am

Fair-cooled wrote: Are German Bosch blue ignition coils worth the extra expense ?
To my mind: no, not for the current price !!!

However, back in the 1970s these were available and inexpensive, so I bought two back then so each of my VWs could have one.

However: both are still working to this day !!!
1970 VW 1600cc

1971 VW 1835cc

Tue Apr 11, 2023 12:37 pm

Cusser wrote:
However, back in the 1970s these were available and inexpensive, so I bought two back then so each of my VWs could have one.

However: both are still working to this day !!!

This is my main hangup on thinking my problem is the coil (along with it testing fine when I measured resistance on it)- these coils were purported to last forever.
Oh well I got two of the Berus from heimlich and these last 4 in vendor existence, if it is my coil I should be set :D

Tue Apr 11, 2023 6:49 pm

sb001 wrote: Cusser wrote:
However, back in the 1970s these were available and inexpensive, so I bought two back then so each of my VWs could have one.

However: both are still working to this day !!!

This is my main hangup on thinking my problem is the coil (along with it testing fine when I measured resistance on it)- these coils were purported to last forever.
Oh well I got two of the Berus from heimlich and these last 4 in vendor existence, if it is my coil I should be set :D

The coils should last a long time *IF* used properly. But there are things that owners sometimes do that damage the coil internally - like leaving the ignition on, or running the car with one or more plug wire disconnected (in this case the energy generated in the coil has to be dissipated somehow and will result in internal arcing which damages the insulation).