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Tue Oct 06, 2020 3:21 am

Having 5 ladies home when the 15 year old water heater Pukes out its last Watery Joules, bad day.

Cutting in the installed tankless ( thanks Covid time) in 30 minutes with PEX, PRICELESS.

Tue Oct 06, 2020 3:53 am

I went tankless years ago - good choice.
Dave

Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:29 am

I have one for our hot water and hot water baseboard heat. Works really well. Very efficient and natural gas is cheap. Highly recommend anyone looking to ditch their 30-50 gallon tank get one of these.

Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:36 am

Would love to go tankless, but have to wait a couple years for the kids to move out. Running out of hot water is the only threat that limits shower length in our house. :roll:

Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:34 am

It takes a few glasses of wine for Mrs. Cusser to go tankless !!!

Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:56 am

PuddleRainbow wrote: Would love to go tankless, but have to wait a couple years for the kids to move out. Running out of hot water is the only threat that limits shower length in our house. :roll:

I installed a tankless water heater years ago after the old water heater sprung a leak on New Year’s Eve. The rise in the water bill more than offset the reduction in the gas bill due to the teenager’s excessively long showers. :evil:

Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:00 am

Cusser wrote: It takes a few glasses of wine for Mrs. Cusser to go tankless !!! Ill buy 4 of them!!!! :shock: :wink: and some paint too!!!
we were thinking about doing it but a budy dodge drag racer sells them..... said not to , not relly worth it. many people never clean out thier big tank and thats what kills them. after drainining and cleaning out the almost 1 foot of mud/sludge in one of the kids tank up in alabama on city/county water I decided to clean out mine hear in florida thats been in since the house was new back in the early 70's.... totaly dumped it all and checked it put...not more than a thimble of sediment. I have a small water heater in my big shop.probably 15 or 20 gallons. it works great in there, but probably not enough for a good female type of shower.....I should turn the power off to ti since it only gets used about 12 times a year....mostly I put it in for the parts washer( old dishwasher, no not the wife) also for the washing machine for washing everything thats too grundgy to og in the house washer gets a good wash~or prewash in the shop. that small water heater fills the washer with hot water just fine. of coarse in the winter I do use hot water for washing my shit scratchers....

Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:04 am

I'll keep my 50 gallon tank. That is 50 gallons of drinking water at the ready for times when systems fail.

Tankless heaters have their place, and they are great for saving space in smaller homes, or for supplying baths far from the water heater location. They can also fail at inopportune times, just like a good old tank heater.

About a decade ago the feds/EPA changed the rules and forced water heater manufacturers to add more insulation, thus making water heaters physically larger. That caused many folks to either remodel their utility space when replacing the tank, or to go tankless. Homeowners paid the price, and more resources were used in the process. Now, with a tankless heater, folks can run hot water as long as they like, and use as many angry pixies as they want.

Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:40 pm

Between the heater cost and the need to run an electrical line to it, it just didn't pencil out for the 5-18 years I plan to live here. It also doesn't solve the "cold water in the hot water line across the house" problem which wastes more that the gas standby cost.

In new construction it's a no-brainer, but retrofits have different economics.

Tue Oct 06, 2020 3:11 pm

KTPhil wrote: Between the heat rcost and the need to run an electrical line to it, it just didn't pencil out for the 5-18 years I plan to live here. It also doesn't solve the "cold eater in the hot water line across the house" problem which wastes more that the gas standby cost.

In new construction it's a no-brainer, but retrofits have different economics.

my plumber neighbor that only does new construction says the same

Tue Oct 06, 2020 3:25 pm

I changed to a tankless 15 years ago. first year saved about 200 gallons of propane one fill up of the 250 gal tank. 3 tanks to heat the house, 2 years age the propane company took our tank because we weren't using enough i now use Wood $1000 for the winter, I now have 3 -100lb (23 gal) tanks ,2 hooked up and a spare, I get 6 mounts per tank 1.99 per gallon right now I pick up, the highest I saw was $4.69 a gallon delivered and at 200 gallons it hurts bad

Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:20 pm

Erik G wrote: KTPhil wrote: Between the heat rcost and the need to run an electrical line to it, it just didn't pencil out for the 5-18 years I plan to live here. It also doesn't solve the "cold eater in the hot water line across the house" problem which wastes more that the gas standby cost.

In new construction it's a no-brainer, but retrofits have different economics.

my plumber neighbor that only does new construction says the same

Tankless has its place in certain situations. But most of the time a 50 gallon tank will serve the purpose better.

This also depends on the cost of gas or electricity in your area. Here in the Northwest, electricity is really cheap comparatively, due to hydroelectric generation. My 50 gallon electric water heater is quite cheap to run.

Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:47 am

My house had a high efficiency power vented tank water heater - pretty expensive to replace, so I went with natural gas tankless for what I expected to be about the same cost (but I was wrong).

I learned that needed larger gas pipes to support the extra BTU demand of the tankless WH - ended up self performing a lot of extra plumbing (gas, copper, & plastic pipe) that drove price up about 50%. Would have been cost prohibitive if I had to contract it out. Ultimately, I did free up a couple square feet in my basement.

I have cheap water, so don't really see extra water use on the bill (takes extra water for hot water to come thru the pipes). I just calc'd my gas bill savings which is about 52 therms/year (based on yellow appliance stickers) and my therm cost last month was $1.15/therm so save about $60/year on gas.

Hopefully also save money on replacement schedule. Power vented tank water heaters last 8-12 years. Tankless is supposed to last 15-ish years. Could be some long term net savings with future water heater replacements.

Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:31 am

Dead volume of tank system, 25 seconds

Dead volume of tankless, 40 seconds.

I fill the pet bowl and the flower pots with the dead water either way.

Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:58 am

oh shit,you have dead whater??? dam I wood move quick!!! does it say...geeetttt ooouuttttt.... :shock: . :popcorn:
I think wahter heaters should of all been placed central to where the outlet 'swill be when ever possiable.... the one in my shop is about 8' from them max.( the farthest one). I also think showers and bath tubs should be plumbed to exit outside in the garden...or tank to water the lawn with. nice clean grass.with conditioner so you dont get greasssburn on your knees.. :wink:

Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:41 am

We bought a Bosch tankless about 3-4 years ago, far right ^^^^^^^ we also have Solar Hot Water. I'd love to install a catch tank for the Upstairs Kitchen sink, as it does take a while for the HOT water to get there. I'm thinking a catch tank in the ceiling of the the 1st floor, run a water line to the 1st floor toilet w/ a valve system, save that waisted H20.......
The propane flash heater, kitchen stove & dryer are our only propane eaters.
Wood heat & a South facing House keep us warm in the Winter.

Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:30 pm

At work we commonly install Navien tankless water heaters for customers. Usually the 240A model. It has a built in recirculating pump (for a hot water recirculating loop system) and a 1 gallon buffer tank; that is used to help prevent the “cold water sandwich” as it’s known. They are made in South Korea and have a crazy good warranty. We very rarely have any issues with them. It can run on either natural gas or propane, and can also be set up to run in parallel with up to 98 other units for large commercial installations. We installed 3 together as a system for a good sized restaurant in our area. One unit is designated as the “master” unit and it controls the others. During low use, only one at a time will run, and it swaps which one is running at each cycle (to help even out the wear between the units). Under times of high demand, all 3 will fire up and run somewhere around 50% capacity (since there’s three units they never need to run at max capacity; when you spec the system for large applications you never want all units to have to run at or near max capacity to be able to keep up with demand).

However, as was already mentioned, a tankless heater isn’t perfect for every installation. If I had to guess, I’d say that roughly 70% of houses that already have gas or propane installed could benefit from a gas tankless heater. The rest would be better staying with what they currently have installed. I can’t speak for the other heaters, but the Navien requires a 3/4” gas line, and also (2) 2” schedule 40 pvc pipes that have to be run to a proper location outside, one for the exhaust and one for the intake. Also you have to run a 1/2” drain line for the combustion housing (to drain condensate). They also recommend you install a Ph neutralizer on the drain line, however very few customers actually have us do so.

Kinda off topic, but another type of water heater that most people don’t seem to know about is called a “hybrid” heater. It’s a normal 50 (or 80) gallon electric heater with a small air conditioning unit mounted on top. Under light use or during down time, the electric elements are turned off and the ac unit runs, pulling heat out of the surrounding air and putting it into the water. If installed somewhere there is sufficient airflow (like an enclosed garage or the like) it’s pretty awesome because it can cool the garage down while taking that heat that would be normally transferred outside and wasted and putting it into the water instead. My boss has one installed in his garage. He also has a wood burning stove in there that he uses to heat his house (it’s a three story). So even during the winter his water heater has plenty of external heat to put into the water. Only during periods of high usage does the elements have to turn on to help keep the water up at temperature. These heaters are a lot more energy efficient that a standard electric unit, however they do cost more up front and, (like the Navien), you have to run a drain line for the a/c unit.

Just thought I’d share this information. Hopefully it can be helpful to someone.

(P.S. Another interesting fact some of you might appreciate. Cracker Barrel restaurants use (2) 100 gallon gas fired water heaters plumbed in parallel to supply their stores. They are set at 145°F, and the inlet and outlet is 1-1/2” copper. They have a recirculating hot water loop and a thermostatic mixing valve for all the bathrooms and the hand sinks in the back (so you won’t get burned). However, as large as they seem, during rush hour if one unit is down, and they turn the dish machine on they will start running out of hot water pretty fast.

Another Cracker Barrel fact: no matter where in the U.S. you go, all Cracker Barrels have three things you’ll always find. A fireplace, over which will be mounted a deer head, and a gun of some sort (usually a shotgun of some type).

Have a good evening! :D

Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:32 pm

For a house of people and a lot of showers or constant laundry I can see it. We've had Copper water heaters in our 2 properties for years. While quite old we've made an adapter to put a new modern burner on it, the tank will never rust out. In our rental unit we have a note on the tank to not replace tank in case there is a failure while we're away.
If I was starting from scratch I would go with an On demand tankless as well. But Damn I like knowing mine will never leak.

Stacy

Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:03 am

Good informative thread!

Our house is heated with a natural gas boiler with baseboard units upstairs and Pex in the concrete slab in the basement. The domestic hot water is a tank with a heating coil in it that the water from the boiler runs through. I set it up with the water heater as the wild loop. The boiler pump runs full time circulating through the domestic hot water tank keeping it at a constant temperature summer and winter.

I don't think this is the most efficient system cost wise in the summer but it works very well in the winter. I have considered going tankless for the domestic hot water but this thread has me giving it second thoughts!

Oh and winter here is 8 months or more (yes we are heating the house right now as I type this) so that factors in too.

Fri Oct 09, 2020 3:38 am

cdennisg wrote: I'll keep my 50 gallon tank. That is 50 gallons of drinking water at the ready for times when systems fail.

Tankless heaters have their place, and they are great for saving space in smaller homes, or for supplying baths far from the water heater location. They can also fail at inopportune times, just like a good old tank heater.

About a decade ago the feds/EPA changed the rules and forced water heater manufacturers to add more insulation, thus making water heaters physically larger. That caused many folks to either remodel their utility space when replacing the tank, or to go tankless. Homeowners paid the price, and more resources were used in the process. Now, with a tankless heater, folks can run hot water as long as they like, and use as many angry pixies as they want.

I’ve got a 4-6 foot water table and a point I can suck sustinemce from Mother Nature if needed.

Of course, one day after the install , we had a historic wind event and power has been out for three days. Restoration estimate, Sunday

The Honda 2kW is purring in the backyard. $500 on blemish sale vs those stupid $10,000 Generacs