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Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:35 pm

Has anyone decoded all these Bosch lubricant codes?

Ol seems to be shorthand for Oel or Öl (Oil).
Ft for Fett ("fat" aka grease).

Reference: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1850635.jpg

1. Ol 1 V 2 Lubricate the breaker plate
2. Ol 1 V 13 Saturate the lubricating felt
3. Ft 2 V 3 Grease the weights
4. Ft 2 V 3 Grease the washers
5. Ol 1 V 13 Steep the bushes in oil for at least 1/2 hour before fitting. Saturate lubricating felt.
6. Ol 1 V 13 Fill lubricator with oil
7. Ol 1 V 13 Oil shaft before fitting
8. Ft 1 V 4 Smear breaker cam with light layer
9. Ft 1 V 26 Grease the movable contact bush

What are they? This is what I've googled so far:

Ft 1 V 4
5 700 002 005
Color: yellow
Use: high temperature bearing grease

Ft 2 V 3
5 700 082 000
Color: black gray
Use: silicone grease (Synthetic oils, Li-soap, molybdenum sulfide, active ingredient)

Ft 1 V 26
5 700 005 000
Color: blue
Use: roller bearing grease, heat and cold resistant with high spin resistance (olefin sulfide)

Ol 1 V 2 ???
Ol 1 V 13 ???

Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:00 pm

Glenn https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=633 or Bill https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=24116 might know.

Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:13 pm

Ol 1 v 2: Dark brown, rather thick oil. For bearings and lubrication felts in distributors and air pressure apparatus.
Ol 1 v 13: Brown/green, thin oil. For bearings in distributors and starters and steep self lubrication bushings before fitting.

As alternaive use engine oil, maybe a thinner oil/ machine oil for Ol1v13.

All shiny parts (cast iron distributors) were also "lubed" with Ol 41 v 2, a rather thin rust inhibitor oil.

Some notes (I think I've uploaded some different Bosch lubrication charts)

Ft 2 v 3: it looks like the silicone grease on the weights were used in later distributors without phenolic damping plate ("weights plate") under the weights (and more internal plastic parts) earlier used Ft1v8 grease on the weights.
Ft 1 v 8: is described as a red, thin bearing grease. Also used mixed with Ol1v2 on the shaft for the cam/rotor on earlier distributors.
Ft 1 v 26 (earlier Ft 1 v 22): is a blue, thick ball bearing grease. Earlier distributors without bushings in the house also used this (mixed with Ol1v13) on the shaft and in the house.

Ft 1 v 4: popular "distributor grease" was (is) only used on the points cam and points rubbing block. Thick (really!) and high temperature. For the internal parts you are probably better off using ordinary ball bearing grease/ lithium grease, engine oil and silicone grease on the weights in newer distributors as them in baywindows.

Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:38 pm

I just use engine oil and distributor grease. No problems after 20 years of use.

BTW the diagram is for a Volvo distributor which has a oil port and the VWs do not. Also that was a transitional design at the end of the cast iron models and the beginning of the aluminum. The only VW distributor that used that design was the ZV/JCU4R3 used on the 1964 Type 3 with the optional 1500S engine.

Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:26 pm

Thanks for this level of detail. Really appreciated.

None of the parts inside look so special that Bosch specific greases are the only option as has been proven but I've been curious to know what they were.

I'd love to locate some VW/Bosch specific assembly or servicing documents.

I still have a Mexican 034 SVDA I bought in 2004. I've never used it as I bought it for a backup to carry in the bus. I did spin it up on a Sun tester at one time to see how it differed from the stock dizzy and I published the graphs on the late Jim Thompson's page:

https://oldvolkshome.wetwesties.org/ignition.htm#A905205ZB

That 2004 distributor has a casting from 1994 and the date stamp on the body decodes to 1999...

I've used it as a model of how Bosch assembled the distributor at the factory but frankly, the greasing appears somewhat sloppy and there is excessive endplay end to end.

Even worse, there were aluminum filings inside and some hair from the person who assembled it...

Tue Nov 03, 2020 1:20 am

The Volvo/Bosch lubrication scheme is no different from Bosch lubrication scheme for vw and other makes (minus the lubrication cup). Probably the same as used for factory assembly at Bosch. VW them self usually just specified oil and white lithium grease/ universal grease on points cam/block.

Later volvo lubrication charts (maintainance, not assembly) usually are a lot simplified, probably the distributors were more seen as "replace when broken" by then. Oil on felt under the rotor, Ft1v4 on the points cam/ block and Ft1v26 on everything else inside. Ft1v26 was also used in many powertools from Bosch.

You could use Ft1v4 grease on everything, mixed with oil it tends to thin out. But there is also no real need for it and you are probably "more correct" to use an ordinary ball bearig grease inside the distributor. For points cam and block the Ft1v4 is outstanding though.

One other thing I have thought of is that when this lubrication schemes were specified the points rubbing block were made of phenolic ("backelite") fibre. Modern replacement points usually are "plastic", polyamide or other (yes phenol is also a plastic, but I think you get what I mean). For them maybe a silicone based distributor/points grease is as good or better?

This is an Bosch lubrication scheme from Bosch (for cast iron distributors). The text is in Swedish, but you can see what goes where.

Compared with the scheme from Volvo for same era distributors they are basicly the same. The difference is non vw specific in the use of oil or grease cup.

Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:31 am

I think part of the "problem" in determining which lubes are which, is that the reference pics/part numbers are 50+ years old. And we all know how Bosch likes to change part numbers depending on what time of day it is, as well as NLA'ing items, especially over decades. So, unless you have "period correct" Bosch reference materials, some info might not be easily found, or found at all.
I think the best source for detailed info would come from the "Bosch Bibles", but even those are few and far between. I know someone who has several, but right now the books are not easily accessible.

Nice to see you posting again Richard.

Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:54 am

Frederik wrote: Some notes (I think I've uploaded some different Bosch lubrication charts)
I looked through your uploads and found several Volvo distributor assembly steps, nothing on lubricants themselves unless I missed it.

Thanks for uploading them all and sharing.

MVH

Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:08 am

Finally found something in English mirroring the same 15 thorough list of steps:

This diagram is from a 1971 Volvo repair manual:

https://www.amazon.com/Including-Workshop-Manual-Intereurope-workshop/dp/0901610399

Somethings I've come to accept:

- the methodology varies according to the manufacturer yet they are all Bosch distributors
- the design of the internals has changed several times over the years, notably more metal washers/shims have been added.

What seems most important is that:

- some wear areas are subject to slight rotation (with spring return)
- others are rotating (up to) camshaft speed

1) Oil vs. Grease

This is where I'm undecided as whether grease or oil is a better choice:

- oil vs. grease to minimize metal shim to metal contact?
- oil vs. grease to minimize metal shim to fiber washer contact?

This is largely due to the varying advice comparing all the assembly references.

2) Distributor Housing

I've recently found German instructions stating NOT to wash the distributor body. This seems obvious suggesting that it will either dilute the oil soaked felt between the bushings or the bushings themselves are oil impregnated or is it both?

3) Shaft to shaft contact

Old grease usually seems to be present between the upper and lower shaft, yet the felt on top is supposed to be oiled which adds some confusion. Is this just part of a compromised design to avoid disassembly and extend the wear?

Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:45 am

I think what is being shown in these drawing it how Bosch wanted the various parts of the distributor to be treated immediately after each part was manufactured, both for corrosion resistance and quick easy assembly of the complete distributor on the line. The Bentley and other manuals show a much simpler process for the normal periodic maintenance.

My long term (~every 5 year) maintenance for the distributor is to pull it, remove the points and condenser and then spray the unit down with something like WD40 to clean it following that with a spray of light oil for rust protection and lubrication. I let the extra oil drain off and then dab the top surface of the breaker plate to remove excess oil, but leave enough to give some corrosion resistance. I put a few drops of oil between the plates to lubricate the contact surfaces and then install the points and condenser, lubricating the point pivot and felt with motor oil and the cam with the appropriate grease. Prior to installing I turn the distributor in its side and work motor oil into the hole in the lower body to get fresh lubricant to the upper bushing.

Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:02 am

Wildthings wrote: remove the points and condenser and then spray the unit down with something like WD40 to clean it following that with a spray of light oil for rust protection and lubrication. I let the extra oil drain off and then dab the top surface of the breaker plate to remove excess oil, but leave enough to give some corrosion resistance. I put a few drops of oil between the plates to lubricate the contact surfaces and then install the points and condenser, lubricating the point pivot and felt with motor oil and the cam with the appropriate grease. Prior to installing I turn the distributor in its side and work motor oil into the hole in the lower body to get fresh lubricant to the upper bushing.
The only issue with sprrying any lubricant inside is it will attract dirt and dust. And if any gets thrown around by the spinning parts it can foul the contacts on the points.

Here's what a "clean", and properly lubricated distributor looks like... not a oily mess

Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:02 am

The Bosch lubrication scheme I posted is a maintainance/rebuild recomendation from Bosch, general for all their distributors. From internal news letters they saw this as an important part of maintainance. They also acknowledge that it might seem "snobbish" with all this different special oils and grease but defended it as they all had their specific characteristics for the place used in the distributor and were technically and practically tested by Bosch to perform the best where used. When you think of it the greases are 3 grades of thick, the real "sticky" Ft1v4 is good for the points cam block, but for the weights they wanted a thinner grease to not have the weights stick. And a medium thick "normal ball bearing/universal grease" for all other moving parts.

The "users" of their distributors, vw for an example might have had a different view. They already had their recommended lubricants in their service program and the service/repair of the distributor was highly simplified. Grease for the distributor (on points cam and rubbing block, all moving parts on weights and vacuum advance) was specified as to use universal lithium grease and just (engine) oil on felts.

Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:13 am

Glenn wrote: Wildthings wrote: remove the points and condenser and then spray the unit down with something like WD40 to clean it following that with a spray of light oil for rust protection and lubrication. I let the extra oil drain off and then dab the top surface of the breaker plate to remove excess oil, but leave enough to give some corrosion resistance. I put a few drops of oil between the plates to lubricate the contact surfaces and then install the points and condenser, lubricating the point pivot and felt with motor oil and the cam with the appropriate grease. Prior to installing I turn the distributor in its side and work motor oil into the hole in the lower body to get fresh lubricant to the upper bushing.
The only issue with sprrying any lubricant inside is it will attract dirt and dust. And if any gets thrown around by the spinning parts it can foul the contacts on the points.

Yes if you lubricate the felt as VW recommends it will get sprayed all over the lower distributor body over time and its good to take something like WD40 and clean out the buildup followed by a light oil to give rust protection so things don't end up a rusty mess, which is all too common. My points tend to last for 20K miles before I file or replace them so your concern that my method will damage the points is unfounded.

I pretty much don't go further into the distributor until the trust washers have failed and they tend to last as much as 200K miles. Pictures of newly rebuilt stuff don't impress me much, I am way more interested in seeing how something looks and works after 100-200K miles, and my stuff tends to be among the nicest I get to see.

Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:22 am

Wildthings wrote: Pictures of newly rebuilt stuff don't impress me much, I am way more interested in seeing how something looks and works after 100-200K miles, and my stuff tends to be among the nicest I get to see.
When i built my 2180 in 2006, i decided to "freshen" up my 010 which had 100,000 miles... the inside was rust free and clean. I did replace all the "wear" items even if they were not bad. No sense putting used parts in when genuine new parts were on my shelf.

Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:10 pm

Glenn wrote:
Here's what a "clean", and properly lubricated distributor looks like... not a oily mess

This is the procedure I’ve followed given the aluminum housing and chromed plating inside.

It also mirrors the NOS Bosch Mexico 034 I have disassembled.

Sure the aluminum corrodes but it is easily cleaned as seen in Glenn’s photo.

The advance plate appears to have been chromed in order to limit rusting suggesting that coating it with oil wasn’t intended.

As for the stamped pattern on the advance plate, is that intended as a carrier for grease?

Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:27 pm

ratwell wrote: As for the stamped pattern on the advance plate, is that intended as a carrier for grease?
Yes, the dotted pattern is to retain grease.

It's very common for the grease to dry up and restrict the upper plate from moving which hinders the vacuum advance.

ratwell wrote:
The advance plate appears to have been chromed in order to limit rusting suggesting that coating it with oil wasn’t intended.

They still rust.

Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:14 pm

The 1971 Volvo scheme is somewhat "simplified" but still follows the Bosch in most aspects. The distributor is still cast iron. I can upload a later lubrication scheme for aluminium distributors but by then the lubrication scheme were even more simple/ not very specified.

VW never had mutch coverage on rebuilding distributors. The early 60's service manuals had a simplified check and lubricate part for distributors (as late Volvo), but this is gone in the 1968 and 1975 versions of service manuals.

1) The upper (in the house) fibre and steel washers is lubricated with both oil and grease, the lower just oil (but there can be nothing wrong with both). The lower will get in contact with the engine oil in use.

2) Thats why if you change bushings or wash the housing needs to soak the new bushings or the whole housing foot with bushings in it for at least 30 minuits (or longer). The Bosch internal news letter says that it is a good practice to store some bushings in oil, and when it's time for change take one from the bath to install and put a new one in oil.

3) If you look at the Bosch lubrication scheme you use both grease and oil on the shafts at a distributor service. After the assembly (on distributors without oil or grease cup, as the Volvo distributor) the after/ in use lubrication is down to the oil from the engine and the oil you put on the upper felt under the rotor. Bosch news letter say that although this after lubrication is important, the service lubrication (as in schart) is probably more important for maintainance.

Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:44 pm

ratwell wrote:

That 2004 distributor has a casting from 1994 and the date stamp on the body decodes to 1999...

I've used it as a model of how Bosch assembled the distributor at the factory but frankly, the greasing appears somewhat sloppy and there is excessive endplay end to end.

I've disassembled a lot of the Mexican 034's and Brazilian 009's and saw the same in regards to sloppy overgreasing. I agree with Glenn in it just creates a mess and attracts the grit/dirt and rotor button carbon.

In regards to the grease/oil used when lubricating these old distributors, I like to use the Bosch distributor grease due to it being sticky and having the correct heat range. I think ANY grease is better than nothing since most of the 40-50 year old distributors I disassemble are dry and are running metal on metal.

Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:20 pm

wcfvw69 wrote: ratwell wrote:

That 2004 distributor has a casting from 1994 and the date stamp on the body decodes to 1999...

I've used it as a model of how Bosch assembled the distributor at the factory but frankly, the greasing appears somewhat sloppy and there is excessive endplay end to end.

I've disassembled a lot of the Mexican 034's and Brazilian 009's and saw the same in regards to sloppy overgreasing. I agree with Glenn in it just creates a mess and attracts the grit/dirt and rotor button carbon.
Factory Bosch Brazilian 009

Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:33 pm

Frederik wrote: I can upload a later lubrication scheme for aluminium distributors but by then the lubrication scheme were even more simple/ not very specified.
That would be most appreciated. All I've seen are simply reinstallation instructions which I'll post into this thread...

Quote: 1) The upper (in the house) fibre and steel washers is lubricated with both oil and grease, the lower just oil (but there can be nothing wrong with both). The lower will get in contact with the engine oil in use.
So grease on all shims/washers on reassembly and then oil at maintenance time?

Quote: 3) If you look at the Bosch lubrication scheme you use both grease and oil on the shafts at a distributor service.
It seems to be grease on the upper shaft and oil on the lower shaft.

Quote: Bosch news letter say that although this after lubrication is important, the service lubrication (as in schart) is probably more important for maintainance.
Thanks for confirming this.