TheSamba.com :: View topic - [Solved] Major Electrical gremlin in 1972 camper

Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:54 am

Hi All,

I've got a Westfalia 1972 with a quite original and well electrical system.
It's been working just fine over the last few years.

However today the whole circuit died on me recently and I'm kinda lost in my diagnosis, so I would appreciate some ideas, where I could keep looking.

Initial Situation - A bad starter:

Just until a few days ago everything just worked fine.
Then all of a sudden my starter stopped working. It's a Hi-Torque starter that so far never made any trouble despite being ~10 years old.
Starting cold and warm didn't work anymore. The solenoid made a rattling clicking noise and that was that. I do have a Hot-Start Relay.
Strangely enough, if I jump start the bus with the help of my aux battery to my starter battery it just started nicely.

This certainly surprised me, since my stater battery has been charged fully and is not that old. So I thought, maybe some connection has been corroded or the starter might be dying on me.

That was my situation for a few days. It was definitely a very strange situation and I wanted to investigate that one further.

Investigating the problem - circuit dead

I wanted to start my investigation on the issue. So I have charged all my batteries properly at first and then I tried to start the car. I turned the ignition on and everything seemed normal (Keep that in mind). Then I tried to start and... again I got the rattling noise of the solenoid for a bit and then... Blackout. Everything went black.

All the dash lights went black, and everything else in the system too. Oops what has happened?
All lights are dark, it does not start, not even the smallest bulb in the instrument cluster lights up.

So I have checked the following first:

Starter Battery has 12,7V and has been fully charged.
AUX Battery has 12,7V and has been fully charged.
All Fuses in the fuse box are fine.
All flying fuses are fine.
Checked the battery cables, all fine.
Checked all the cables at the starter 30 connector. All fine.

Turning the Ignition Key to 15 did nothing.
Trying to start the car did nothing.
Light Switch: Nothing.
Wiper Switch: Nothing.
Interior light: Nothing.
Emergency flasher: Very strange noise from the Relay. Finally a first hint.

I have immediately measured the circuit voltage at the battery with the emergency switch on and the Voltage read ~8 Volts.

Then I have turned the ignition switch on and measured the circuit voltage at the battery again: ~2 Volts.

So I think that something somewhere does a short circuit, but I have no idea where. I have checked all the cables behind the dashboard and they all seem fine. Couldn't find any loose connector. Some in the engine compartment and under the car.

I have still suspected the starter to be the issue at this point. So I have removed all the cables leading to the starter and connected the cables leading to it independently together, but this didn't change anything.

So I'm kinda lost where I should continue my investigations.
I have a feeling that some device broke and is causing a partial shorting somewhere. I have placed the Amperemeter between the Plus-Pole of the Starter Battery and the big lead, but this just drew 1mA without any load.

I'd appreciate any help.

Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:27 am

You say you've removed, cleaned and tightened some of the cables, now's the time to do them all, that includes the ground strap at the front of the transmission.
What you describe is a poor connection at the red/white wire on the starter, possibly combined with other bad connections.

Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:35 am

That red/white Cable is exactly the culprit I have in mind. I just wonder how this cable can turn to crap in a matter of minutes.

Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:41 am

It can't, but the connection at the starter, or the other end at fuse #10 on the fuse box can fail from age, or other factors. Just because the ring terminal is clean doesn't mean the crimp onto the wire is good.

Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:46 am

I was thinking ground strap as well. I cleaned/sanded mine and still had some gremlin issues. I replaced it with a new one and all was good.

Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:56 am

The Groundstrap at the transmission is new and connections are fine.

The crimps at the Red/White cable are fine on the starter end. The cable is obviously the original one.
Gotta find and check the other side. I will check with a bypass cable to verify.

Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:00 am

I'd also have a look at the hard start relay. I had one die not too long ago and the bus wouldn't start. In fact I'd remove that altogether. I did. If the wiring is good and clean they aren't necessary.

Steve

Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:01 am

Quote: Then all of a sudden my starter stopped working. It's a Hi-Torque starter that so far never made any trouble despite being ~10 years old.

So it has never been out and rebuilt for 10 years? Regardless of other faults, that is 5 years overdue from servicing if you want a daily driver, no failure experience.

Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:06 am

Abscate wrote:

So it has never been out and rebuilt for 10 years? Regardless of other faults, that is 5 years overdue from servicing if you want a daily driver, no failure experience.

You guys are servicing your starters? :shock:

Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:07 am

Quote: I have immediately measured the circuit voltage at the battery with the emergency switch on and the Voltage read ~8 Volts.

Then I have turned the ignition switch on and measured the circuit voltage at the battery again: ~2 Volts. this is real easy to troubleshoot. If voltage at the battery POSTS falls that low, it's bad. Something that big of a short, that pulled that much current, would melt large wires. You can put something like a large old headlight bulb across the battery and see what it does. Or get one of these: https://www.harborfreight.com/automotive/diagnosti...61747.html

Make sure you get the cables in the right spot when you put it back or jumper it.

Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:12 am

SGKent wrote: Quote: I have immediately measured the circuit voltage at the battery with the emergency switch on and the Voltage read ~8 Volts.

Then I have turned the ignition switch on and measured the circuit voltage at the battery again: ~2 Volts. this is real easy to troubleshoot. If voltage at the battery POSTS falls that low, it's bad. Something that big of a short, that pulled that much current, would melt large wires. You can put something like a large old headlight bulb across the battery and see what it does. Or get one of these: https://www.harborfreight.com/automotive/diagnosti...61747.html

Make sure you get the cables in the right spot when you put it back or jumper it.

That's what I got confused about.
How can I have such a large drop at the battery without seeing the side-effects of a large short. There was no smoke or any other indication of anything drawing large amounts of Amps.

Is there a non-zero chance that the battery itself could be broken?

Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:15 am

DrElch wrote: SGKent wrote: Quote: I have immediately measured the circuit voltage at the battery with the emergency switch on and the Voltage read ~8 Volts.

Then I have turned the ignition switch on and measured the circuit voltage at the battery again: ~2 Volts. this is real easy to troubleshoot. If voltage at the battery POSTS falls that low, it's bad. Something that big of a short, that pulled that much current, would melt large wires. You can put something like a large old headlight bulb across the battery and see what it does. Or get one of these: https://www.harborfreight.com/automotive/diagnosti...61747.html

Make sure you get the cables in the right spot when you put it back or jumper it.

That's what I got confused about.
How can I have such a large drop at the battery without seeing the side-effects of a large short. There was no smoke or any other indication of anything drawing large amounts of Amps.

Is there a non-zero chance that the battery itself could be broken? Check your voltage POST to POST. See what it is. If it falls then something in the battery is bad. Post to Post, NOT cable to cable or ground to post. You can do that later if the post to post is Ok.

edit:
Let's say it is 12V post to post and it doesn't fall, then the battery is good. But if it falls then the battery is bad (assuming it has been charged).

If the post to post is good then you can move the probe to another spot and test again. When you lose the voltage that is where the corrosion is. On a car battery, the amount of voltage needed to drop the voltage that low would make the battery cable so hot it would burn your hand. If a wrench gets across a battery it will get so hot it glows. That is the kind of current needed to lower a battery that much. Otherwise the bad cells or corrosion is in the battery. You need to be careful with the battery if it is bad. There is hydrogen in the battery and a spark from a broken post can set it off.

Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:22 am

Post to Post it is 12.7v without any load, but the cables attached.

Also if I check the voltage in other places in the chassis where I would expect permanent voltage it is 12.7v.

The load drop that I have described was also measured from Post to Post.

Example: So let's say I turn the emergency switch on (to get the strange noise in the relay). Then I go to the back of the car and measure Post to Post only 8v.

Turning the switch off and it is back to 12.7v

Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:09 am

OK, and you are measuring with the points of the probes touching the actual post in the center of the battery terminal, not on the part that clamps around it, right? How about the very same test with booster cables connected between your two batteries?

Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:37 am

if you are 8V post center to post center under a load the battery is bad or lacks a charge.

Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:58 am

DrElch wrote: Abscate wrote:

So it has never been out and rebuilt for 10 years? Regardless of other faults, that is 5 years overdue from servicing if you want a daily driver, no failure experience.

You guys are servicing your starters? :shock:

That shiny new Bosch one you get from a store now has no DNA in common with the part that came with your car.

If you rebuild it BEFORE you grind it death with a start issue, it will last forever.

Thu Aug 26, 2021 12:09 pm

What you describe is a symptom of leaving a battery to go flat for a while then charging it - the plates develop a layer of sulfate on them which reduces the capacity.
The fraction of the battery that is still working will show normal voltages while you are charging it, but it will not be able to deliver any current.

Either take it to a store to get it tested , or buy one of those eBay battery testers that can measure the internal resistance of the battery and calculate the Cold Cranking Amps.

If the voltage drops off just with the ignition on and the headlights running , thats another sign.

The fact you can jump start it with the Aux battery is yet another sign of the death of your starter battery.

Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:59 pm

I agree with others, your battery is most likely totally shot, buy the best replacement that you can find. Cheap batteries will not save you any money.

FWIW in the Pacific Northwest I have had very good luck with the top of the line batteries that Les Schwab sells, they have a 7 year warranty and I don't think I have even needed to have one replaced under warranty and I typically own 5 or 6 batteries at any one time, many of which do a lot of sitting.

Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:19 am

Thanks for all your help.

But it wasn't the battery.

The ground strap connection the battery to the chassis was so corroded, that it wasn't properly conducting anymore. Or in this case not conducting at all!
The strap itself was perfectly fine.

I applied a temporary fix to verify my assumption (mounting the strap to another point) . Lo and behold everything is back to normal.

So I can consider this now a solved problem. Thanks guys.

Just out of curiosity, are such mounting points for the ground strap more prone to corrosion than other points in the car? Is there something going on because copper goes on metal like electrolysis?

ANything I can do to improve longevity for when I redo this mounting point

I have to start from scratch. The old bolt is striped, so I have to drill it out and replace it.

Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:35 am

Thanks for following up.

Electrical connections decay at a much faster rate than purely mechanical ones, those added electrons seem to speed up the process.
Bolt the shiny end of the strap to shiny metal with a shiny bolt, use a good amount of grease between the layers and brush more on the outside when you are done, by the time it's a problem again you'll be too old to care.