TheSamba.com :: View topic - Can't Order Birth Certificate, is engine original?

Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:51 pm

I have a 1965 Beetle that I would like to get the birth certificate of. However, going onto this site: https://www.volkswagen-classic-parts.com/en_us/service/certificate-data-sheets.html

I am unable to order one. It looks like they will not ship outside of Europe (I'm from the US). All I really want to find out is if the 40 horse motor that came with it is original. Is there at least a way I could find that out?

Sat Nov 06, 2021 8:20 pm

Idk about the certificate, but you can check your engine number here under the technical tab. It will open to type II, so select the type I tab.

It will give you the engine range dates and you can compare that to your car manufacturing date.

Sun Nov 07, 2021 4:32 am

I got one in August. It worked then. $75 and it showed up 4 weeks later. In Connecticut.

Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:59 am

Pruneman99 wrote: … you can check your engine number here under the technical tab…
It will give you the engine range dates and you can compare that to your car manufacturing date.
Here is the Type I VIN page:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/bugchassisdating.php
Scroll down to 1964-1965. Find the month that shows the VIN closest to your car's VIN but higher in value. The VINs listed in the 2nd column next the the month (1st column) are the VIN for the last car produced in that month. Next to it is the engine serial number for that car. Comparing your car’s VIN with that month last VIN and the last VIN from the previous month will give you an idea when during the month (early/mid/late) your car rolled off the line. Do the same for the engine#. If you find your engine# comes from way outside the suggested range you can surmise it is a replacement engine. If your car was made at the beginning or end of the month and the engine# comes from the neighboring month don’t fear, it may still be possible they came together. There isn’t a strong correlation between the listed engine#s and when they came off the factory line as the engines and cars were made separately and in many years the same engine was used in different model cars (T1 & T2). But if your engine is from a different time of the model year or a different year altogether, it suggests a replacement and not the original.

Just an FYI, from reading others posts... do not expect the VW Birth Certificate to tell you what your original engine serial number was. To avoid counterfeiting, if you supply the correct engine# in your application, the certificate will confirm this. If you provide an incorrect engine# the certificate will not contain an engine serial#. There are some examples of this in the gallery. In this way, a person cannot fake having a "numbers matching" car.
This is not to discourage you getting a certificate as I believe anyone with a classic Beetle should have one just to know more info about their car. But don't expect to find out the engine# for your car if yours is not the original one.

Sun Nov 07, 2021 9:06 am

No issue ordering one. Added it to the cart with a US address. However, the price did go up significantly since I ordered one last year.

Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:03 am

The birth Cert is the only think they will ship outside the USA. But as pointed out. Expensive. $100 i think.

Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:57 am

matthew henricks wrote: The birth Cert is the only think they will ship outside the USA. But as pointed out. Expensive. $100 i think.

Currently 100 euro or 115 usd. I paid 74 euro or 87 usd last year. Not sure what justifies the price hike.

Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:29 pm

I personally think that all of these lists are just estimates. I have a 1965 beetle which has always been in the family and I know that it is still the original engine. My chassis number is 115 120 745 and my engine number is 8220531. That means that my 1965 was built with a 1964 chassis and a 1963 engine. All the other components are true to 1965 however.

Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:12 pm

115 is a 65 chassis not a 64. Anything built from Aug 64 is a 65 if you are going by build month. A 64 chassis will still have the old VIN sequence. Your engine number appears to be Dec 63, no likely to be original to car.

Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:34 am

Like I said, unless the dealer swapped the engine prior to my family buying new, the engine is original to the car.

Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:50 pm

1965_Beetle wrote: Like I said, unless the dealer swapped the engine prior to my family buying new, the engine is original to the car.

I have a newer beetle which has previous year's parts on it despite being bought by my Dad and has been in the family since new. This is not documented anywhere and does not show up in the owners manual.

I am sure your family remembers everything as important as an engine being replaced so it is possible that an "old" engine found its way back into production. It may have originally failed some quality control or it was defective somehow. It was then sent back to the "repair section" where it went into a queue for repair. Not a high priority. Probably end of year production came in July and everyone went on holidays. On return it was back into production of "new" engines and yours sat in the back of the workshop until some efficient German supervisor says "Warum ist das hier? Why is it here? It's worth a lot of money and is gathering dust. Get it repaired and back into the engine queue."

I'm sure it happens in lots of production facilities. (It did in mine-called old moving stock"). If the engine was identical to what was being produced at the time other than an "incorrect" number then it would have been used. However I would have thought that VW would have machined the engine number off and re-issued a new number.

So the only other possibility is that someone changed the engine at a service for some reason???

Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:09 pm

viiking wrote: ...
So the only other possibility is that someone changed the engine at a service for some reason???
My theory is the newly delivered car (what would become later the property of 1965_Beetle's family) ended up donating its engine to a slightly older car whose rather irate owner needed to be got back on the road posthaste. The latter car's engine was then installed in the former after repairs were made.

Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:23 pm

If it was swapped at the dealership then the Volkswagen museum will NOT confirm that the engine is correct to the car nor will they tell you the original engine that the car left the factory with.

Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:12 pm

Interesting theories and all could be plausible. My grandmother originally purchased the car in 1964 as a 1965 model (I wish I had the original paperwork). It was purchased from Mill Valley Volkswagen (in California) from sales representative Ted Von Reitzenstein. In her roughly 40,000 miles of driving, she only did basic maintenance (oil changes) and several trips to body shops as she liked tapping the fenders on things. I came into possession of the car in 1976 where I took over all maintenance items myself. I then parked the car in the garage around 1983 and it has been garage kept ever since.

I also own a 1967 MGB GT. I also am convinced it has the original engine just by looking at the engine bay but have no proof. The English kept terrible records so I don't believe anyone could prove one way or another. I always thought that the German's kept much better records. I really like the "Warum ist das hier" theory! :D

Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:51 pm

822... is not a '63 engine, it was built in Dec. '63 for the '64 model year already months in production. But since VW operated with notoriously better inventory control- I highly doubt it's OG to a '65 anything. MOST engines are installed within a couple weeks of the car's production.

Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:07 am

Thank you for all your responses regarding my misfit engine….especially to the stubborn one’s that insisted it was wrong! :D You all got me to really clear some memory dust on this one, and then it finally dawned on me. Back when I was young and dumb in high school (late 70’s) and in an effort to get the old beetle all cleaned up, I pulled the engine out myself. I had heard of a friend of a friend who was really good at re-building VW engines. I took the long block to him and he was to install a 1385cc kit as well as balance the rebuild. I remember him asking me if I wanted to go with dual port heads as to really feel the increased displacement but I opted for retaining the single port heads for originality. Upon picking up the rebuilt engine from him, I recall him also saying to me that my engine didn’t even need the rebuild. I knew he was probably correct as it had only 80,390-miles on it. After reinstalling the engine, I do remember enjoying the little extra power I had achieved. However, shortly after only adding just over 3k miles to it, it ended up getting garaged for the next 40-years. That was where the exchange must have happened. As upsetting as this is to me now, I am now left with the option of keeping the old engine with original looks, or upgrading to more of a performance engine. Thanks again everyone and Happy Thanksgiving.

Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:40 pm

I am at a loss for words.
This restoration of memory is truly a Thanksgiving Miracle.

Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:03 pm

I was reading the latest issue of DB & Hot VWs VWs and guess what ? Page 28 a very nice write up on the Classic VW Parts and how that all works, even a few pics. Worth the read.