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busdaddy Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:22 pm

nbvolks wrote: heimlich wrote: Abscate wrote: Quote: You can economically pop a fresh engine/transmission in a 10 year old ICE car and go but can you economically do the same with new batteries in a 10 year old EV?

It is generally not economical to do this.

Sure it is. There are a lot of ways to do this. Japan has some kind of law that basically makes people put new engines in their car when the mileage hits 40K miles or so. Companies buy those engines and import them into USA. I bought an engine from Japan for my car (many years ago).

Salvage yards take in totaled vehicles. You can buy the engine for cheap from a low mileage salvage.

That's not exactly how it works. In Japan the taxes on a vehicle increase as the car ages, so the incentive is to sell the car, and buy a new one. It was designed to promote the domestic car industry.

Since there's effectively no real used car market within Japan, the older cars are either bought and shipped to other countries, like Australia or the Caribbean (not kidding, it's a brisk business to import and sell used Japanese cars in a lot of Caribbean countries, and I don't mean cool, Fast & Furious type cars, I mean humdrum family cars and light SUVs). Those cars that aren't worth selling in another market, or who's engines are worth more than the chassis, are made into a "half-cut" or have the engine pulled, and are shipped to places like the US, Canada, or Europe.
So that's why I saw so many Corolla AE100's in Jamaica, is it the same deal with Afghanistan and surrounding countries?, those things seem to be the only cars they drive.

From what I've heard it's not only the tax, but also a mandatory in depth mechanical/safety inspection after X many years that makes so many JDM cars available for export, it hurts to own an older car in japan.

Floating VW Tue Mar 14, 2023 7:24 pm

nbvolks wrote: As far as insurance goes, as I said in a previous post, they're basically the same. . .

Excise tax is basically the same as well. There's nothing special about how it's calculated for either 'fuel' type. . .

I do get a $10 rebate on our electric bill for having an EV, as long as I charge it only between 10pm and 12pm (overnight/morning) or on the weekends. . .

. . . Polestar/Volvo has a partnership deal with Electrify America, where I don't pay to use their stations.
I hear a lot of EV proponents talk about the above-mentioned financial advantages of owning an EV. It seems to me that a lot of these benefits are currently being offered to sweeten a somewhat sour deal, but are not at all sustainable in the long term (especially the government subsidies and the "free" charging stations).

So I have to wonder, what kind of tune are we gonna be singing when the mules finally get the cart where the master wants it to go, and the master decides to pull away the carrot?

Abscate wrote: As more folks who own these post their experiences . . .
Be careful, that's a two-way street. I've heard just as many EV owner's curse their cars as praise them. More curses than praises, in fact, but that's probably because complaining is just so damn fashionable these days.

nbvolks Tue Mar 14, 2023 7:51 pm

Floating VW wrote: nbvolks wrote: As far as insurance goes, as I said in a previous post, they're basically the same. . .

Excise tax is basically the same as well. There's nothing special about how it's calculated for either 'fuel' type. . .

I do get a $10 rebate on our electric bill for having an EV, as long as I charge it only between 10pm and 12pm (overnight/morning) or on the weekends. . .

. . . Polestar/Volvo has a partnership deal with Electrify America, where I don't pay to use their stations.
I hear a lot of EV proponents talk about the above-mentioned financial advantages of owning an EV. It seems to me that a lot of these benefits are currently being offered to sweeten a somewhat sour deal, but are not at all sustainable in the long term (especially the government subsidies and the "free" charging stations).

So I have to wonder, what kind of tune are we gonna be singing when the mules finally get the cart where the master wants it to go, and the master decides to pull away the carrot?

It's 100% to get people beyond the Boogeyman they see as range anxiety.

Most end up using it less than they thought, or not at all, because most owners end up going with home charging. I've had the car for 18+ months, and I've used public fast charging maybe a dozen times, and only twice (I think?) where it was needed as part of a longer road trip. The other times it was because we were going to the store or restaurant that was next to the fast charger....and yeah...I'll take some free electrons.

That deal is only good for 2 years, and when it ends, it will impact my life exactly 0%. Why? One, because, as I mentioned it's by no means a primary means of charging for me. And two, even if I did have to use it more frequently, I'd still come out ahead in terms of "fuel" costs relative to our ICE vehicle.

vwracerdave Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:39 pm

2 things you are neglecting to mention in your cost effectiveness.

Insurance is higher for an EV than an ICE vehicle. I confirmed this with my insurance agent.

Tag and registration is more expensive in my state for EV's. I also confirmed this with my local tag agent.

If there is a power failure or power blackout, you are not charging anything anywhere.

nbvolks Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:21 am

vwracerdave wrote: 2 things you are neglecting to mention in your cost effectiveness.

Insurance is higher for an EV than an ICE vehicle. I confirmed this with my insurance agent.

Tag and registration is more expensive in my state for EV's. I also confirmed this with my local tag agent.

If there is a power failure or power blackout, you are not charging anything anywhere.

That's 3 things, and I did address the first two.

1. Our insurance is not higher. Plus, I'm not sure what exactly your confirming with your agent, since coverage is based on a variety of metrics. But as I said in my very first post to this thread, our insurance between two similarly priced cars, from essentially the same manufacturer, with the only large difference being ICE vs BEV, our insurance is essentially the same, with the BEV being like $20 bucks less.

2. Tags, inspection, and excise are the same, or calculated the same way, resulting in no real difference.

3. I've lived in various parts of the country throughout my life. The longest I've gone without power in any location for more than 24 hours. So I'm not basing anything on that. Plus, if power was out for a significant amount of time beyond that, that means there's a serious issue in the region, that probably means I'm not really driving anywhere. And looking ahead, the car(s) will have vehicle to grid/house, so I can use the car to power the house, and solar panels will be installed, meaning the car acts as a battery backup to the house, and is charged during the day. (Again, that's planning for a scenario that has never even happened, to me.)

Abscate Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:26 am

Quote: f there is a power failure or power blackout, you are not charging anything anywhere.
_

And you arenít pumping gas , either.

Abscate Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:36 am

steve244 wrote: You're being trolled. He's not stupid.

The interesting real world facts brought here by the adults , like you, outweigh having to skip over the toddler tantrums of poor arguments. Iíve clipped the best ones to use as interview questions.

Iím an outlier of rejuvenating old stuff but most wonít put $2000 of labor into a ten year old car. Doing it yourself is just playing games with the economics. I charge myself $30 an hour to work on cars to keep some fiscal sanity on it.

Iíve got 60 hours in my 1999 Volvo DD which is totally an economic loss for a 1500 car, even at my skunk DIY rate

oprn Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:47 am

nbvolks wrote: And looking ahead, the car(s) will have vehicle to grid/house, so I can use the car to power the house, and solar panels will be installed, meaning the car acts as a battery backup to the house, and is charged during the day. (Again, that's planning for a scenario that has never even happened, to me.)
Don't take this as Gospel folks! It ain't exactly true! Good thing you qualified that with "looking ahead" as I do not believe that is possible at the present time. Cars are DC and homes are AC. Your AC to DC charger will not work backwards!

So unless your home is powered by DC at the same voltage as your car and you have a special cord made up, you are SOL.

oprn Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:50 am

heimlich wrote: Abscate wrote: Quote: You can economically pop a fresh engine/transmission in a 10 year old ICE car and go but can you economically do the same with new batteries in a 10 year old EV?

It is generally not economical to do this.

Sure it is. There are a lot of ways to do this. Japan has some kind of law that basically makes people put new engines in their car when the mileage hits 40K miles or so. Companies buy those engines and import them into USA. I bought an engine from Japan for my car (many years ago).

Salvage yards take in totaled vehicles. You can buy the engine for cheap from a low mileage salvage.
Exactly! Maybe someday there will be enough EVs in the salvage yard to do the same but that is a good way off right now.

Evil Clown Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:51 am

The synthetic fuels are looking promising
for our old cars :)

oprn Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:54 am

Evs are starting to look promising too! They both have a ways to go yet to be universal replacements.

nbvolks Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:59 am

oprn wrote: nbvolks wrote: And looking ahead, the car(s) will have vehicle to grid/house, so I can use the car to power the house, and solar panels will be installed, meaning the car acts as a battery backup to the house, and is charged during the day. (Again, that's planning for a scenario that has never even happened, to me.)
Don't take this as Gospel folks! It ain't exactly true! Good thing you qualified that with "looking ahead" as I do not believe that is possible at the present time. Cars are DC and homes are AC. Your AC to DC charger will not work backwards!

So unless your home is powered by DC at the same voltage as your car and you have a special cord made up, you are SOL.

What on earth are you talking about?

I predicated my statement on the fact that I/we have not yet installed solar (but are planning to do so in the next year or two to take advantage of tax incentives), and that our current EV does not support V2G, but there are EVs that support it right now, and the next slate coming from Volvo/Polestar (who we'd most likely buy from again) also has this functionality.

You do NOT need a DC charger at your home!

Do you think my current home chargers are DC?! They're AC, and the onboard converter manages the AC from the house to convert it to DC for the high voltage battery. It's the same arrangement, in reverse for V2G setups.

oprn Wed Mar 15, 2023 6:55 am

It matters not if the AC/DC conversion is done in your car or in your home. It takes a completely different device to reverse the process. Is your car actually capable of doing this right now?

nbvolks Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:16 am

oprn wrote: It matters not if the AC/DC conversion is done in your car or in your home. It takes a completely different device to reverse the process. Is your car actually capable of doing this right now?

I'm starting to get the sense that you aren't actually engaged in this conversation and are not reading what I'm posting.

I said:

nbvolks wrote: I predicated my statement on the fact that...our current EV does not support V2G, but there are EVs that support it right now, and the next slate coming from Volvo/Polestar (who we'd most likely buy from again) also has this functionality.

But right now, you can go out and buy new EVs, like the Ford Lightning, or the Nissan Leaf and have V2G support. I know the Lucid Air and the Rivian R1S and R1T are scheduled to open up that function later this year via software updates.

You can also buy EVs, right now, that offer vehicle to load (V2L) functionality. (aka: you can plug devices directly to the car's chargeport to power high power demand items) The Ioniq 5, EV6, etc. support that.

And virtually every new EV set to be released in the next year or two is slated to support V2G.

There is no situation where conversion is done within the home, or within the EVSE (aka: wall charger), with regards to V2G. That is always and only handled onboard the car, with the cars converter. EVERY modern BEV has an onboard converter, because it needs it to convert Level 1 & 2 charging (home AC charging) to DC for the high voltage battery.

Evil Clown Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:50 am

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Q-Dog Wed Mar 15, 2023 8:07 am

oprn wrote: It matters not if the AC/DC conversion is done in your car or in your home. It takes a completely different device to reverse the process. Is your car actually capable of doing this right now?

I have an inverter/charger hanging on my wall that converts 24v DC into 120v AC and 120v AC into 24v DC. One way converts battery power into house power and the other way converts AC from a generator into charging current for the batteries. Most of the time the battery bank is charged from solar panels, but if we get a week of no sun I can charge the battery bank with whatever AC supply I have available, no extra device needed.

So clearly, it DOES NOT take an entirely different device. It just takes someone with an open mind and exposure to things outside of their own little world.

steve244 Wed Mar 15, 2023 8:30 am

sigh...

Leaf is turning 8 this year and passed 72K miles.

I've had it since 2019 and put 50K miles on it.

It has 10/12 "bars" of capacity or 83% and allows me 60 miles of range with the heat on and driving like a bat-out-of-hell, or 75 in eco-mode with the HVAC turned off. New it was rated at 84 miles of range.

I paid $8K when it was 4 years old with 22K miles.

I charge for free at work (but installed a too expensive industrial grade siemens charger at home for $600).

I've put tires on it once. Wiper blades once. Oh and filled the washer reservoir a couple times.

My only complaint is it's totally not sexy. Luckily I more than make up for what the car lacks in mojo.

suckers.



nbvolks Wed Mar 15, 2023 9:40 am

@Steve244, those 1st gen Leafs really aren't known for good battery management. They're about as good looking as they are battery conscious. But they are cheap on the used market! And if all you need is a local commuter, they're perfect for that.

I think ours is more of a looker than the Leaf. 😉

Here it is hanging out with our Beetle.



And the Beetle with the MR2 (had that for 17 years, but sold it in '21), and our other family hauler, the Volvo V90 Cross Country.


steve244 Wed Mar 15, 2023 9:56 am

Yeah, with passive battery temperature control it won't do as well. And GA has a mild climate.

If you live in Arizona or Minnesota remember this.


nbvolks wrote:
I think ours is more of a looker than the Leaf. 😉


Compensation?

Mickey bitsko Wed Mar 15, 2023 9:58 am

^ reflections of their owners, definitely sexy



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