TheSamba.com :: View topic - 3M Crystalline window tint

Thu Jul 18, 2024 12:12 pm

shagginwagon83 wrote:

"3M prints on the film itself most the imposter stuff prints logos on the backing. Get some 91 isopropyl alcohol and a microfiber towel or cotton ball. And rub them they’ll come right off."

guess we have to ask the installer not to "clean" the film before we get there, huh?

....could it be a rubber stamp?

Thu Jul 18, 2024 12:38 pm

With my Groupon the total was $400 - but that was in 2012.

The logo is really unnoticeable (you have to look for it) and does not occur on every window as it is widely spaced and depends on how the film is cut.

Thu Jul 18, 2024 1:56 pm

FWIW...

Thu Jul 18, 2024 2:07 pm

jimf909 wrote:

so even the 3m stamp could be a spoof.

Oy Vey!

Thu Jul 18, 2024 3:22 pm

vanis13 wrote:
so even the 3m stamp could be a spoof.

Oy Vey!

Here's some technical performance data and an 800 customer service number that be helpful. The heat lamp demonstration may be enough in measuring if it meets standards but maybe not.
https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1919596O/3m-au...-sheet.pdf

Thu Jul 18, 2024 6:11 pm

I'm looking at becoming a certified installer for crystalline. The class is like $1000 (or $3000 with a $2,000 purchasing line so still like a thousand) and I now have five vans so it'd be good to know what I'm getting..... And if I could give a Samba deal to all y'all with the genuine stuff that would be fun.

Fri Jul 19, 2024 9:53 pm

Now then. Applying that kind of film is more of an art. And vanis13, 5? Hmmm. I should start a new search campaign! Its a foundation after all ;-)

Maybe I should be thinking about my air cooled cars. Vanagons have soaked up vast amounts more than '74 or older. Just my observation.

Anyway, back to the art of applying crystalline film. Learn it. I'll pass along a tidbit from my installer; it takes a very clean and dust free environment. If I were doing 5 buses of tint, it would make sense, especially if I got serial on it, one bus at a time, plodding right through. Ugh

Not Debbie Downing, actually applauding!! I'd also love to!!

-bobby

Fri Jul 19, 2024 10:38 pm

thanks,,,one reason to do it myself (ther than I'm sure I'm getting the genuine stuff) is that I don't want a hassle on the off-vehicle issues the installers have. I get doing it flat can be tough but why not have a vertical suction rig. stick the glass to some suction cups so the glass is vertical and what's the issue?

The classes don't happen frequently so I have some research to do to select one...and select one where I actually want to visit. 3M headquarters are in St Paul MN so taking a class there would be cool but I don't want to drive my van there....maybe there is a sambatista with a couch if I fly in.

here's the training page if anyone else is interested. Avail from 3M or from other trainers. The one to get is "3M Automotive Window Film Training" there is also "3M™ Automotive Window Film with Crystalline Preferred Installer Testing" for like another $500 but I wonder what the benefit of that would be if I'm not going to make a full time business with it.

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/graphics-signage-us/re...20Training

Sat Jul 20, 2024 8:04 am

Have you pinged 16CVs here? He's an auto glass pro and may have some insights.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=18076

Mon Jul 29, 2024 7:27 am

jimf909 wrote: Have you pinged 16CVs here? He's an auto glass pro and may have some insights.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=18076

Fwiw, I PMd with a professional in this field that didn't post here so not saying who.... The things that came up were:

There can be a rainbow/wavy look looking through.

One has to be careful cleaning widow film.

And something I didn't consider, since window tint isn't oem, the possible liability of film on Windows especially the windshield and front sides

Experience with these points ? Anyone have the crystalline cleaning/use instructions they could post/link? Id like to know in general and especially on the windshield.

Mon Jul 29, 2024 8:32 am

The installer of my Crystalline specified SprayWay glass cleaner... nothing else (ammonia free).

Mon Jul 29, 2024 11:49 am

3M Crystalline 20:
- Visible Light Transmission: 21%
- Total Solar Energy Rejection: 63%
- Infrared Rejection: 99%
- Glare Reduction: 76%
- UV Block: 99.9%

Llumar Pinnacle 05:
- Visible Light Transmission: 5%
- Total Solar Energy Rejection: 64%
- IR Energy Rejection (IRER): 62%
- Selective IR Rejection (SIRR): 90%
- Ultraviolet Protection: >99%
- Glare Reduction: 94%

Stratos 15:
- Visible Light Transmission: 17%
- Total Solar Energy Rejection: 63%
- IR Energy Rejection (IRER): 66%
- Selective IR Rejection (SIRR): 95%
- Ultraviolet Protection: >99%
- Glare Reduction: 80%

I asked AI which of these tints is the best.

Quote:
Recommendation:

- If infrared rejection is your top priority, go with Crystalline 20.
- If you want low visible light transmission and high glare reduction, choose Pinnacle 05.
- If you prefer balanced performance with the best IR energy rejection and selective IR rejection, Stratos 15 is the best option.

I said it was for a campervan where keeping the van cool while parked is main priority.

Quote:
Given your goal to keep the van cooler, you should focus on the tint that offers the highest infrared rejection.

Based on the provided data:

- Crystalline 20 offers 99% infrared rejection.
- Pinnacle 05 provides 62% IR energy rejection and 90% selective IR rejection.
- Stratos 15 provides 66% IR energy rejection and 95% selective IR rejection.

For the best cooling effect in your campervan, Crystalline 20 would be the best choice due to its highest infrared rejection rate of 99%. This will significantly reduce the heat buildup inside your van when parked in the sun.

Mon Jul 29, 2024 10:24 pm

shagginwagon83 wrote:
For the best cooling effect in your campervan, Crystalline 20 would be the best choice due to its highest infrared rejection rate of 99%. This will significantly reduce the heat buildup inside your van when parked in the sun.

Nice work. AI is suggesting that Crystalline 20 will "significantly" reduce heat buildup and is better than other products by calling out that IRR is the a key variable. That's helpful.

Can you ask AI:
- Will users experience a similar reduction in heat buildup with Crystalline 90 or is the 400 basis point difference in IRR meaningful to occupant comfort and the reduction in heat buildup will no longer be significant...or less significant?
- I don't know AI's capabilities, but instead undefined terms like "significantly" I'd prefer to see data visualizations of the user experience such as comparisons of (hourly?) interior temps across a day using different products. Have you subscribed to that level of AI? Do we need a gofundme? :wink:

In short, how can AI help us weed through the spec sheets, bogus marketing lies, internet group-think, idiot influencers, etc. to quantify differences in products related to a specific desired outcome for the user? Bonus question: when will AI be broken like the internet was in 2009?

Thanks.

Tue Jul 30, 2024 5:57 am

Steps to Create the Visualization:

1. Calculate the Total Window Area for each type of glass.
2. Estimate the Heat Gain through the glass using the Solar Heat Gain Coefficient (SHGC) from the tint data.
3. Simulate the Interior Temperature based on external temperature and heat gain.
4. Create Hourly Temperature Profiles for a typical day.

Total Window Area Calculation:

- Back glass: 54" x 20.5" = 1107 sq. in.
- 4x side glass: 4 x (37" x 16") = 2368 sq. in.
- 2x front door: 2 x (28.75" x 16") = 920 sq. in.
- Total Window Area: 1107 + 2368 + 920 = 4395 sq. in. ≈ 30.5 sq. ft. (converting sq. in. to sq. ft.)

Simplified Heat Gain Calculation:

- Total Solar Energy Rejection (TSER): We'll use this to estimate the percentage of solar energy blocked.
- External Temperature Profile: Assume a constant external temperature of 85°F.
- Heat Gain Formula: Heat Gain = Solar Radiation x Window Area x (1 - TSER)

Assumptions:

- Solar Radiation: 300 BTU/hr/sq.ft. (average)
- External Temperature: 85°F constant.

Implementation:

I used Python to perform these calculations and generate the visualizations.

Comparison Analysis with Crystalline 90 Included:

Crystalline 20:
- Visible Light Transmission: 21%
- Total Solar Energy Rejection: 63%
- Infrared Rejection: 99%
- Glare Reduction: 76%

Crystalline 90:
- Visible Light Transmission: 86%
- Total Solar Energy Rejection: 34%
- Infrared Rejection: 95%
- Glare Reduction: 3%

Llumar Pinnacle 05:
- Visible Light Transmission: 5%
- Total Solar Energy Rejection: 64%
- IR Energy Rejection (IRER): 62%
- Selective IR Rejection (SIRR): 90%
- Ultraviolet Protection: >99%
- Glare Reduction: 94%

Llumar Stratos 15:
- Visible Light Transmission: 17%
- Total Solar Energy Rejection: 63%
- IR Energy Rejection (IRER): 66%
- Selective IR Rejection (SIRR): 95%
- Ultraviolet Protection: >99%
- Glare Reduction: 80%

Llumar IRX 05:
- Visible Light Transmission: 6%
- Total Solar Energy Rejection: 62%
- IR Energy Rejection (IRER): 60%
- Selective IR Rejection (SIRR): 86%
- Ultraviolet Protection: >99%
- Glare Reduction: 94%

Key Insights:

- Crystalline 20 provides the coolest interior temperature, demonstrating the effectiveness of its high infrared rejection.
- Crystalline 90 allows significantly more heat buildup due to lower total solar energy rejection and infrared rejection.
- Pinnacle 05, Stratos 15, and IRX 05 also help reduce the interior temperature, but not as effectively as Crystalline 20.

Recommendation:

For the best cooling effect and occupant comfort in your campervan:
- Crystalline 20 is the optimal choice due to its superior infrared rejection, resulting in the lowest interior temperature.
- Crystalline 90 is less effective in reducing heat buildup, making it a less ideal choice compared to other options.

Updated Graph

The graph below includes Crystalline 90 in the interior temperature comparison, assuming a constant external temperature of 85°F.

[Graph of Interior Temperature Comparison Using Different Window Tints (Constant External Temperature)]

Summary of Results:

- Crystalline 20: Interior temperature ~87.5°F
- Pinnacle 05: Interior temperature ~88.0°F
- Stratos 15: Interior temperature ~88.5°F
- IRX 05: Interior temperature ~88.5°F
- Crystalline 90: Interior temperature ~89.0°F

Tue Jul 30, 2024 9:30 am

Brandon, thanks for working through this experiment. We can iterate on this for quite awhile. Probably no need though even though it's fun.

- In the first iteration it appears that AI focused on 'highest infrared rejection' to assess comfort. 3M is substantially better than others in that spec. and that's why it was the top choice.
- In the second it appears that TSER was a primary variable and, with the exception of C90, the films vary little in that spec. TSER incorporates IR, Visible and UV energy. C90 TSER is lower ion this spec because it passes much more visible light.

IR = ~50% of TSER and is the greatest factor in heat absorption
Visible light = ~44% of TSER
UV = ~1% of TSER

What doesn't pass the sniff test is the Summary Results: it seems that interior temp would be higher than 90 degrees on an 85 degree with any amount of sunshine, and; the variance between the films, 1.5*, doesn't appear to be significant to me. However, they are probably directionally correct and adjusting the model may get us closer (unless the results are correct and my sniff test is wrong).

Just for fun, if AI wrote this sentence it would probably be more accurate written as: - Crystalline 90 allows significantly more heat buildup due to lower total solar energy rejection, driven primarily by allowing 4x more visible light and infrared rejection.

What is AI's standard for using the word 'significant'? Does it get it from marketing-speak or statistics? :lol:

Tue Jul 30, 2024 11:30 am

I can't believe we're having a discussion with the third person in the room that's not even here and which holds no distinct credibility.

Tue Jul 30, 2024 12:30 pm

Well, it's not really a person. And I agree that AI in general, as manifested in google, youtube, siri, netflix, etc., has a massive credibility gap from my POV but I'm sure my POV is meaningless to the deployers of AI.

Tue Jul 30, 2024 2:34 pm

Right, as far as I know we don't have any subject matter experts or Window Film Engineers here.

AI can at least point us in the direction of getting the answers we need. So many factors in regards to measuring performance of window tint.

Someone created a GPT specifically around Window tinting service tips - https://chatgpt.com/g/g-v7LjBIHh9-window-tinting-services-tips
The idea here is that a window tint professional/engineer trains the GPT specific things about window tint. Maybe some useful formulas. But, I am unsure but it could be biased.

Not going to spam the thread more with AI responses.
As always, Jim thanks for your questions! I didn't know GPT could produce charts like that.... going to be super helpful in the future.

I am pretty sold on having 3M crystalline installed but I was interested in what the competition film looks like.

I was reading Reddit and someone claims the hue of 3M crystalline is very beautiful.

Tue Jul 30, 2024 5:00 pm

Not sure if my anecdote belongs here or not, but I recently had Crystalline 90 installed on every window of my Vanagon, including the windshield.

A local tint shop charged $1325, and it took them about 8 hours. The results are remarkable and can be demonstrated by half opening a front window and resting your arm in the sun; half in and half out of the film. Almost immediately the extent of the rejected heat becomes obvious.

If anyone considering the film wants more details, feel free to message me, I think this comment is slightly adjacent to the purpose of this thread, unless you are in Portland, in which case I can recommend the tint shop I used to you!

Tue Jul 30, 2024 7:34 pm

drj434343 wrote: Crystalline 90 installed on every window of my Vanagon, including the windshield.

A local tint shop charged $1325, and it took them about 8 hours. The results are remarkable

This is totally where this belongs! Thanks for your input - it makes me feel better investing so much money into this high quality film!