TheSamba.com :: View topic - Is upgrading a early bay to front discs worth it?

Tue Apr 25, 2023 3:40 pm

Reckon I should ask before my tax return burns a hole in my pocket.

I’m talking about no booster just doing like a CSP kit. Looks plug and play except for the check valves in the master cylinder. Less maintenance maybe better brakes. Is the braking that much better than drums without the booster? Or is it like you just don’t have to diddle with the front drum adjustments anymore and braking power is the same?

Tue Apr 25, 2023 3:46 pm

I personally don't think so. Ask Robbie or Colin. They went a lot of miles with just drum brakes. It takes more than just swapping the drums for rotors. Yo have to balance the braking too, and the disk buses also have brake boosters.

Tue Apr 25, 2023 4:12 pm

IMO it would really depend on HOW and WHERE you drive.

the power brakes add another level of comfort in the Mtns..
and in 'fast traffic' where other cars have HUGE brakes and drive with a go/no-go mentality

me I hate taking the 55mph 'divided' highway that has stop lights.. cause the yellow/red is NOT timed for the braking capabilities of our antiques in mind. and @55mph you're going to get rear ended by just about everyone.. so you roll at 65mph to be more comfortable.. but again can't brake in time for the yellow/red

Tue Apr 25, 2023 4:25 pm

look up the stopping distance on your bay and compare it to modern cars. The 71 - 79 bays stop in the same distance as modern cars, Drums require adjustment to work at an optimal level. I think Gary (aeromech) has added a booster to some drum brake buses and he said that was worthwhile.

Tue Apr 25, 2023 5:57 pm

If a stock VW boosted disc system came up for a good price, I would jump on it. I've driven three aftermarket disc setups on early bays and don't think I would part ways with that kinda cash and free time/shop expense for the meager payoff, unless you were daily driving a loaded bus for work down hills every day.

NYCynthia's bus got a booster, because she weighed so little her body lifted off the seat before the brakes could lock up, even though the drums were working fine. That bus is my favorite early bay to drive now, though it still needs an annual brake adjustment.

Robbie

Tue Apr 25, 2023 6:53 pm

Having owned a 68 and a 71 without a working booster not much difference. My 71 with a working booster Night and Day.

Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:38 pm

I would add a factory disc brake setup to a bus in a heartbeat. I did it to my 70

non assisted disc brakes like that on a T3 or Ghia are fine for a light car but having driven aftermarket setups in the past, they really weren't all that much better than drums (in my opinion) other than you didn't have to keep them adjusted.

I wouldn't part with the $$ for an aftermarket kit

Tue Apr 25, 2023 9:51 pm

I have a customer named bill. His 1968 bus had been converted years ago to 1971 front discs and 1971 rear drums. Braking sucked.

Last year Bill had me install a booster. Bill is very happy now.

Going back a couple posts to Robbie (airschooled). Robbie was referring to a 1968 bus owned by a very small Chinese gal named Cynthia who was from New York. Cynthia was having a very hard time stopping her bus with all her effort. We installed a brake booster in her bus and it made a huge difference. She retained her original 1968 drum brakes and just added the booster.

I’ve done this mod many times with good results.

Wed Apr 26, 2023 6:00 am

I put the CSP kit on my '70 van
I can't say I like the disk brake kit but I can say for sure I hated those drum brakes. peddle pulsating, puddles terrified me, and going down a hill I still shiver thinking about that ....

I have 14s on my van, if I had 15s I would have put a kit on with the Wilwood calipers (https://www.wilwood.com/)

imho ymmv

Wed Apr 26, 2023 8:08 am

Quote: peddle pulsating,
means warped drums. Usually caused by mis-adjusted brakes that get too hot, or someone used cheap aftermarket drums. Discs will warp too under certain circumstances. I am 72 and have driven many cars with both. I've experienced far more warped discs than warped drums.

read this thread. Lots of information here. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=511636

Wed Apr 26, 2023 8:17 am

SGKent wrote: or someone used cheap aftermarket drums.

and what are our choices today?

sure, you can try and find 50 year old used drums and if you're lucky enough to have someone actually ship them to you I'm willing to bet you'd have a 500.00 pile of scrap iron before you found a set that might, just might fall into spec after having them turned

I mean, this is where we're at today. either deal with the aftermarket junk or just don't drive them.

rear drums have been an issue for the wide 5 crowd for over a decade now with the drums cracking around the hub spline area.

so the choice is get creative or just park it

Wed Apr 26, 2023 10:13 am

I am going belt and suspenders on my '69. With no RPVs, the drums sucked, even with new everything (shoes, M&S cylinders, soft lines), so figuring out what I have and what was done by POs (like a cheap, rusted aftermarket backing plate, etc) has been an adventure.

So I went with this front disc kit:
https://type-emotorsports.com/collections/featured...-brake-kit

Note this kit is the adapters and bearings, NOT the calipers, rotors, pads. Kit is $$$ but very well made, and it then uses common (cheap) GM components that you can get at Rockauto or your local FLAPS (they are THAT common). Total out the door for all was about $750 (including this kit). Bolt-on with little or no trouble at all, less than a 1-day job.

Uses the stock early bay wheels so I didn't have to buy all new wheels and tires to make the disc conversion. Installing '71 stock discs would mean five new wheels and tires.

This kit made a big difference, but with no RPV on the rear drums, pedal travel is still long. But it stops from 65mph quickly, and has no fade, mushiness, or pulling, so it's a great first step.

I am having Gary install a booster next month or so. In the process the correct master and RPV will be installed so the rears will do their job properly, and it should then be among the best stopping vehicles I have!

I know I will like the discs with their almost zero maintenance, the lug studs instead of nuts, and the lack of fade. And parts replacement will be easy and cheap down the road. The booster will make it easy to drive, but I also like that it will stop well should that system malfunction, and isn't a band-aid for poor brakes.

Wed Apr 26, 2023 10:23 am

I bought a used CSP kit and installed it on my '70 last fall and was pleased with what seemed a mild improvement.
After the first long trip this year I have to say that the improvement was far greater than I thought.
Maybe it's the lessened brake fade, maybe the pads are bedded in better, I don't know, but I think they were definitely worth the 500.00 I payed.

Llke Skills says, what are your choices today? I can't trust replacement brake parts so it makes sense to use a system of oem calipers and pads from other manufacturers.

Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:13 am

KTPhil wrote: I am going belt and suspenders on my '69. With no RPVs, the drums sucked, even with new everything (shoes, M&S cylinders, soft lines), so figuring out what I have and what was done by POs (like a cheap, rusted aftermarket backing plate, etc) has been an adventure.

So I went with this front disc kit:
https://type-emotorsports.com/collections/featured...-brake-kit

Note this kit is the adapters and bearings, NOT the calipers, rotors, pads. Kit is $$$ but very well made, and it then uses common (cheap) GM components that you can get at Rockauto or your local FLAPS (they are THAT common). Total out the door for all was about $750. Bolt-on with little or no trouble at all, less than a 1-day job.

Uses the stock early bay wheels so I didn't have to buy all new wheels and tires to make the disc conversion. Installing '71 stock discs would mean five new wheels and tires.

This kit made a big difference, but with no RPV on the rear drums, pedal travel is still long. But it stops from 65mph quickly, and has no fade, mushiness, or pulling, so it's a great first step.

I am having Gary install a booster next month or so. In the process the correct master and RPV will be installed so the rears will do their job properly, and it should then be among the best stopping vehicles I have!

I know I will like the discs with their almost zero maintenance, the lug studs instead of nuts, and the lack of fade. And parts replacement will be easy and cheap down the road. The booster will make it easy to drive, but I also like that it will stop well should that system malfunction, and isn't a band-aid for poor brakes.

Thanks for posting that KTPhil
I like that kit better then the CSP kit I used. The common parts thing is HUGE.

Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:52 pm

KTPhil wrote: I am going belt and suspenders on my '69. With no RPVs, the drums sucked, even with new everything (shoes, M&S cylinders, soft lines), so figuring out what I have and what was done by POs (like a cheap, rusted aftermarket backing plate, etc) has been an adventure.

So I went with this front disc kit:
https://type-emotorsports.com/collections/featured...-brake-kit

Throw in another thanks for posting this. This is the kit I've had bookmarked, and I'm glad to hear it's got a good hands-on review.

Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:37 am

ATP wrote: KTPhil wrote: I am going belt and suspenders on my '69. With no RPVs, the drums sucked, even with new everything (shoes, M&S cylinders, soft lines), so figuring out what I have and what was done by POs (like a cheap, rusted aftermarket backing plate, etc) has been an adventure.

So I went with this front disc kit:
https://type-emotorsports.com/collections/featured...-brake-kit

Throw in another thanks for posting this. This is the kit I've had bookmarked, and I'm glad to hear it's got a good hands-on review.

Wow! This kit looks cool I question that all the brake parts the seller says are widely available are for 80's Chevy's. Are those going to keep being easy to find? The 80's ain't gettin any younger

Fri Apr 28, 2023 8:08 am

GM used those parts for 10-15 years on several models.
I ordered them all on Rockauto and they were in stock.

Fri Apr 28, 2023 8:39 am

PatJr wrote: KTPhil wrote: I am going belt and suspenders on my '69. With no RPVs, the drums sucked, even with new everything (shoes, M&S cylinders, soft lines), so figuring out what I have and what was done by POs (like a cheap, rusted aftermarket backing plate, etc) has been an adventure.

So I went with this front disc kit:
https://type-emotorsports.com/collections/featured...-brake-kit

Note this kit is the adapters and bearings, NOT the calipers, rotors, pads. Kit is $$$ but very well made, and it then uses common (cheap) GM components that you can get at Rockauto or your local FLAPS (they are THAT common). Total out the door for all was about $750. Bolt-on with little or no trouble at all, less than a 1-day job.

Uses the stock early bay wheels so I didn't have to buy all new wheels and tires to make the disc conversion. Installing '71 stock discs would mean five new wheels and tires.

This kit made a big difference, but with no RPV on the rear drums, pedal travel is still long. But it stops from 65mph quickly, and has no fade, mushiness, or pulling, so it's a great first step.

I am having Gary install a booster next month or so. In the process the correct master and RPV will be installed so the rears will do their job properly, and it should then be among the best stopping vehicles I have!

I know I will like the discs with their almost zero maintenance, the lug studs instead of nuts, and the lack of fade. And parts replacement will be easy and cheap down the road. The booster will make it easy to drive, but I also like that it will stop well should that system malfunction, and isn't a band-aid for poor brakes.

Thanks for posting that KTPhil
I like that kit better then the CSP kit I used. The common parts thing is HUGE.

And this is a route Id take as well. Funny Phil posted it, as its a route T3 owners have had to take for a long time. :lol:

Fri Apr 28, 2023 8:46 am

KTPhil wrote: GM used those parts for 10-15 years on several models.
I ordered them all on Rockauto and they were in stock.

I went to rock auto and saw that the parts were for a 1989 Chevy Celebrity or a 85 Camaro. I'll try to cross-reference with all the FLAPS too thouhg. It would sucked to buy this and be assed out on replacement parts just like if I bought one of those $$$ CSP kits.

Fri Apr 28, 2023 9:09 am

notchboy wrote: PatJr wrote: KTPhil wrote: I am going belt and suspenders on my '69. With no RPVs, the drums sucked, even with new everything (shoes, M&S cylinders, soft lines), so figuring out what I have and what was done by POs (like a cheap, rusted aftermarket backing plate, etc) has been an adventure.

So I went with this front disc kit:
https://type-emotorsports.com/collections/featured...-brake-kit

Note this kit is the adapters and bearings, NOT the calipers, rotors, pads. Kit is $$$ but very well made, and it then uses common (cheap) GM components that you can get at Rockauto or your local FLAPS (they are THAT common). Total out the door for all was about $750. Bolt-on with little or no trouble at all, less than a 1-day job.

Uses the stock early bay wheels so I didn't have to buy all new wheels and tires to make the disc conversion. Installing '71 stock discs would mean five new wheels and tires.

This kit made a big difference, but with no RPV on the rear drums, pedal travel is still long. But it stops from 65mph quickly, and has no fade, mushiness, or pulling, so it's a great first step.

I am having Gary install a booster next month or so. In the process the correct master and RPV will be installed so the rears will do their job properly, and it should then be among the best stopping vehicles I have!

I know I will like the discs with their almost zero maintenance, the lug studs instead of nuts, and the lack of fade. And parts replacement will be easy and cheap down the road. The booster will make it easy to drive, but I also like that it will stop well should that system malfunction, and isn't a band-aid for poor brakes.

Thanks for posting that KTPhil
I like that kit better then the CSP kit I used. The common parts thing is HUGE.

And this is a route Id take as well. Funny Phil posted it, as its a route T3 owners have had to take for a long time. :lol:

I have one of these kits sitting on the shelf for my bus that became a project. It looks beefy. Brian (typeE) has said that he has a disc kit for the rear of buses. He hasn't released it. Imagine, rear discs, off the shelf parts, and hopefully more properly biased. Maybe he'll decide that making a living isn't all that important and release niche shit?