TheSamba.com :: View topic - Starter for 002 transmission with 091 bell housing.

Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:39 pm

I picked up another '72 bus project. The PO was going to put an 1971 1600cc engine in it. He took a '69-'70? 002 and put a '76-'79 091 bell housing on it so it would be supported by the frame hanger. The engine has a 200mm clutch kit. The PO had passed away and this information was from his son. My question is are there any starters that will fit the 091 bellhousing and work with the clutch kit? Thanks for any input.

Mon Oct 16, 2023 7:26 pm

I think a starter for say a 1978 bus should work

Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:02 pm

You need to make sure the input shaft in whatever tranny you use is compatible with a Type 1 engine. The Type 1 takes a shorter input shaft than a Type 4 motor, IIRC.

As mentioned a starter for a 76 and later bus will work.

Tue Oct 17, 2023 6:35 am

Thank you Aeromech and wildthings for your input.

Tue Oct 17, 2023 9:12 am

Wildthings wrote: The Type 1 takes a shorter input shaft than a Type 4 motor

This will depend on exactly what sort of gland nut/crankshaft is installed in the engine. I took an 002 trans, obviously a rebuild, out of a 1970 bus with a "stock"
1600 engine, which had the longer input shaft. It would not go into my "stock" 1600 engine in my 1971 until I replaced
the input shaft with the shorter version.

Tue Oct 17, 2023 5:38 pm

Sorry I can't help much with the starter for the 091 bellhousing, but I did dig back to 2009 and find this:

https://web.archive.org/web/20120418034821/http://www.tunacan.net/t4/tech/clutch.htm

--

I've found a few late input shafts that have "successfully" made it into Type 1's, and I've driven them hundreds of miles before one day the clutches stopp working properly. The Type 1 input shaft is 12mm shorter and both are available new from Weddle Industries. Here's the one you need, which you might already "have" if someone swapped shafts or cut yours down.

https://weddleindustries.com/products/091-311-105-A-HD/091-311-105-A-HD

The swap is not difficult, but it does need a new gasket and some patience, plus a rubber mallet and a gear oil change.

If you can post a picture of the side of your bellhousing so I can see the shaft sticking out, I'll be able to tell you which you have. Otherwise, you can place a straightedge across the bellhousing and measure the shaft protrusion, we can tell you which shaft you have.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewforum.php?f=6

Good luck!
Robbie

Tue Oct 17, 2023 7:15 pm

Robbie,
Thank you for responding to my post. It is my understanding that the PO only changed the bell housing from the 002 to the 091. The shaft is the original to the transmission. The '71 dual port was built from new stock parts, case, crank, pistons etc. He called it a '71 but it's not an original VW engine built by VW. The engine and transmission were never mated together. I will post a picture as soon as I can.

Tue Oct 17, 2023 7:20 pm

Kreemoweet, thanks for info. I plan on trying to put the engine and transmission together this weekend and see what happens.

Tue Oct 17, 2023 7:58 pm

It is possible to bolt up a 1971 DP engine to a 091 bell housing that has the long input shaft. I’ve done it. If Busdaddy didn’t inform me of my screw up the longer shaft hitting hard on the crank which removed all of the required end play would have eventually caused thrust bearing failure.

Solution was cut 3/8 inch off the input shaft and bevel the end. You don’t need to change the shaft

Sat Oct 28, 2023 5:24 pm

Sat Oct 28, 2023 7:42 pm

Your using a 1600 engine up to a 091 bell housing = not going a to happen.

input shaft has not a damn thing to do with the stater ! input hooks up the the trans, not the starter.

091 bell housing is thicker/ Deeper than a 002. you'll need a 002 5 rib if you want the ears and use a 1600 mowtor or engine.

How ever some have machined these down to work on a T1 engine. you'll machine down the bell = engine mounting surface to match the dept of a 002 = now your clucth will work

next machine down the mount surface at the stater, now the stater bendix gear will engage the flywheel

input shaft. you have a 002 trans. I guess you have a 002 shaft ? so use that or just get one from a bug trans.

You'll money ahead to just put a 002 bell back on it. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Sat Oct 28, 2023 8:44 pm

Be careful following the previous posters post

Sat Oct 28, 2023 8:50 pm

yinnawagon wrote: Your using a 1600 engine up to a 091 bell housing = not going a to happen.

input shaft has not a damn thing to do with the stater ! input hooks up the the trans, not the starter.

091 bell housing is thicker/ Deeper than a 002. you'll need a 002 5 rib if you want the ears and use a 1600 mowtor or engine.

How ever some have machined these down to work on a T1 engine. you'll machine down the bell = engine mounting surface to match the dept of a 002 = now your clucth will work

next machine down the mount surface at the stater, now the stater bendix gear will engage the flywheel

input shaft. you have a 002 trans. I guess you have a 002 shaft ? so use that or just get one from a bug trans.

You'll money ahead to just put a 002 bell back on it. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

The overall depth of the 091 and 002 bellhousings are almost exactly the same, but the shapes are a bit different with the starter mounting surface for the 091 moved back by 12mm or so, which is why a starter with a longer starter drive is required.

The input shaft length varies according to the needs of the engine and not because of the depth of the bellhousing.

Yes the 091 bell housing takes longer studs and bolts.

Sun Oct 29, 2023 1:37 pm

the main issue will be the placement of the flywheel teeth on the flywheel. If the diameter of the 200mm flywheel starter teeth is smaller than a late 228mm flywheel then the starter teeth will not properly mesh. Maybe someone with a 228mm flywheel can post the diameter or circumference of a 228 mm flywheel, then you can compare it to your 200mm flywheel teeth diameter etc.. That is the only thing that will answer your question. Note - even if a starter meshes, if it does not mesh properly then the teeth and starter teeth will wear quickly.

Sun Oct 29, 2023 2:15 pm

I’m confused on sizes

180mm clutch = 6 volt < 1967 I think
200mm clutch = 12 volt [1968 -1971]
After that we went to 210mm and 228mm

All that said, aren’t we talking about clutch plate diameter more than flywheel diameter?

I know a 180mm/6 volt flywheel must mate to a 6 volt starter (which can run on 12 volts)

I know a 180mm bell housing can be clearanced slightly to accommodate a 200mm/12 volt flywheel.

What I’m asking is that even though clutch plate sizes grew from 200-228, did the outside diameter also change on the flywheel? Were the starter teeth a different pitch? I know the throw out distance changed

Sun Oct 29, 2023 5:43 pm

aeromech wrote: I’m confused on sizes

180mm clutch = 6 volt < 1967 I think
200mm clutch = 12 volt [1968 -1971]
After that we went to 210mm and 228mm

All that said, aren’t we talking about clutch plate diameter more than flywheel diameter?

I know a 180mm/6 volt flywheel must mate to a 6 volt starter (which can run on 12 volts)

I know a 180mm bell housing can be clearanced slightly to accommodate a 200mm/12 volt flywheel.

What I’m asking is that even though clutch plate sizes grew from 200-228, did the outside diameter also change on the flywheel? Were the starter teeth a different pitch? I know the throw out distance changed

The starter doesn't care about the clutch plate size. It cares about the flywheel ring gear, whether pressed on or cast as a part of the flywheel. My understanding is that a 228 flywheel will rub in an 002 bell housing. If it is because the outer diameter where the teeth are is larger, then the placement of the starter will also be farther out on a 228 / 091 combination than earlier flywheels. If someone has a 228 flywheel lying around, they can measure the circumference with a tape measure and post it. Then he can measure his flywheel and compare the two.

Sun Oct 29, 2023 11:11 pm

His Question !

Yes, check imi starters, just google that. then call up.
you see there web site, There the real deal. it's not just VW . They have starters for steam Boats.
these are gear reduction starters. They'll startup a dead horse. and priced around $250.

last I was on there site was 1 1/2 yrs ago, There listing for 091 starter is sperate on that page showing as new. was listings 091 matted to LS / 091 to subi / 091/ Honda. so on.

Mon Oct 30, 2023 12:39 am

The ring gears of all three of the flywheels used on Type 4 engines in buses are the same diameter and they all sit the same distance out from the mounting flange on the engine.

When a 228 clutch is used in an 002 bellhousing it is the clutch cover that rubs and not the flywheel or ring gear.

Mon Oct 30, 2023 6:12 am

Thanks to everyone for their input. I took a straight edge and laid it flat against the 091 bellhousing and measured the input shaft protruding from it. It measured 12mm. I found the original 002 bellhousing in the bus and put it back on the transmission. The input shaft measured 17mm protruding from the edge of the bellhousing. According to other threads I have seen this is correct for a 1.6L engine. Given there is a 5mm difference using the 091 bellhousing how do I measure for when the transmission and engine are mated together?

Mon Oct 30, 2023 9:08 am

vwreboot wrote: Thanks to everyone for their input. I took a straight edge and laid it flat against the 091 bellhousing and measured the input shaft protruding from it. It measured 12mm. I found the original 002 bellhousing in the bus and put it back on the transmission. The input shaft measured 17mm protruding from the edge of the bellhousing. According to other threads I have seen this is correct for a 1.6L engine. Given there is a 5mm difference using the 091 bellhousing how do I measure for when the transmission and engine are mated together?

Form you pictures you can see that the shaft on your 091 has been shortened already, maybe by more than it needed. The 002 and 091 bellhousings are going to mount to the engine exactly the same so what you need to do it determine what length shaft will work for you. Lay your straight edge across the mounting flange on the engine and measure to the engine side of the pilot bearing. Now measure the step in the mounting surface and subtract that from the first number. The shaft on your transmission needs to stick out at least this far not including any taper on the end of the shaft.