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Fri Jul 19, 2024 5:28 pm

Hi everybody

I am going to be pulling the engine out of my 1969 411 soon for a rebuild.

My question relates to the realignment/centring of the clutch plate.

As you know, the centre spline retainer of the clucth plate is smaller than the "standard" VW clucth plates and therefore the centring tool I have won't work.

What are the options for me to recentre the clucth plate correctly during the reassembing?

Also, are these clutches found on other vehicles (eg: 914's) etc?

Cheers
Greg

Sat Jul 20, 2024 3:39 pm

:D ....you may think this is crazy...but this also makes it MUCH easier to install the transmission to the engine.

Remove the round plug on the top of the tail cone of the transmission. Use a 15mm socket to remove the special locking nut on the end of the drive shaft. Use a pick and magnet to pull out that E-clip underneath it.

Do not lose either of these parts.

Put the nut back on but only thread it down about halfway. Take a soft plastic or metal prybar wrapped in a rag or a big screwdriver...and lever outward a little bit.

The entire driveshaft will pull right out of the transmision.

This is also a good time to replace the drive shaft seal in the bell housing.

Use the splined end of the shaft on your clutch disc to get it aligned :D !

Then re-install the driveshaft but leave protruding out the back about 4". Bolt the engine to the transmission completely. Slide the drive shaft back in twoard the engine and turn the transmission shaft slightly until you know you have the splines engaged and then it should slide right in.

Use anti-sieze on the splines.

Ray

Sat Jul 20, 2024 5:59 pm

Thanks Ray

I have a spare gearbox and will do what you suggest to that one.

Is the drive shaft seal the same as the “normal” gearboxes or is it unique to the 411?

Also, from my investigation it looks like the clutch thrust bearing is unique to the 411?

Is there anything tricky I need to be aware of removing the engine from the gearbox and putting it back?

I’m used to playing with Type1/2/3 engines and gearboxes which are pretty straight forward to remove and replace.

Cheers
Greg

Sun Jul 21, 2024 7:24 pm

yes, the mainshaft seal is kind of unique to the 411/412 but is not hard to find.

Its VW part # is 004 311 491.
The size is 17mm ID x 30mm OD X 7mm thick so its listed as a 17 x 30 x 7.

I am trying to pull a part # off of the National brand seal I have in one of my transmissions close at hand. I have it somewhere in my books. Wait...here it is
CR 6620. You want to make sure that these are metal shells with rubber on the outside. It should also be a double lip seal.

That number...6620... also transfers to SKF seals
https://vehicleaftermarket.skf.com/us/en/products/6620

BUT...theSKF 6620 seal is all metal outside. I have used these...they work....but they can be a little loose because they do not have rubber on the outside.
Its usually not the seal its the tube you are driving it into that is just a few thousandths oversize. In a pinch I have installed the SKF 6620 seal with a little Indian head sealant or motoseal.

Typically the CR seals are also all metal. But they have a green mastic on the outside that usually allows a tight fit.

Here is a sale on ebay for $6.25 each. He has three in stock.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/166750869036

Here is also a sale on Ebay from motion industries. $19.95 for three NOS seals in bags. Motion industries is fantastic source. These appear to have rubber outside like the factory seal.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/325591449181

More on the rest of your question in the am.

Ray

Sun Jul 21, 2024 7:36 pm

Thanks Ray!

Mon Jul 22, 2024 3:25 pm

Hi ray,

I managed to find some new seals from my local bearing supplier....

Cheers
Greg

Mon Jul 22, 2024 7:01 pm

Ok...so a detailed answer on how to align the clutch disc using the mainshaft of the transmission,....and you can use it for that because you need to remove it to MOST easily remove the transmission from the engine.

Understand these items up front:

1. Unlike types 1, 2 and 3....removing the engine and transmission as a complete package is NOT the easiest way to do a clutch job and simultaneously change out the mainshaft seal on the transmission.

2. There are critical drivetrain alignments that MUST be done with type 4 cars...especially manual transmission....for best shifting and to not damage the transmission.

3. There are two adjusting points for the entire drivetrain package....on late model cars.

These adjusting points tilt the engine up or down toward the rear or front. Other adjustment slew it side to side...all balanced around teh upper hanger bar that spans the joint between the tranmission and engine. That is teh center of gravity.

The PONT of this...is that on later cars the tailcone mount or bumper assembly in the socket on the rear suspension beam...floats...a few millimeters. Its should not be side loaded either up or down or side to side in the socket in the rear beam.

On early model cars there is only one point of adjustment because your car "should" have the solid transmission tailcone mount to the rear suspension crossmember and it should have the non-adjustable outer body attachments to the rear hanger bar.

The gist is that the later model rear bar end hangers as you can see in the diagrams below, have a vertical threaded rod that adjusts the height of the rear hanger bar by about +/- 13mm. Pivoting around that center cross member and its rubber bushings over the transmission....this tips the tail cone up or down in its socket.

The later model rear hanger bar also has captive nuts and slots in the body so that the engine can be slewed side to side by about +/- 0.5" to again, pivot the whole package around the central overhead hanger bar above the transmission....to move the tranmission tailcone bumper from side to side in its socket.

BUT....your early model car has a more solid mount on the transmission tail cone. So it did not yet have the adjustable end pieces on the rear hanger bar and it "should: have the different...flat stamped rear hanger bar shown in the diagram.

The second point of adjustment....all cars have early and late and it is very important. It is a stack of shims on each side of the upper transmission hanger bar on each side under the rubber bonded eye mount bushings.

So for your car...as long as the same shims go back under the two bonded rubber mounts....and your rear hanger bar mounts are good and your tailcone bumper/mount is in good shape....there will be no adjusting needed.

Plus....if you use the method I list here to remove the engine and clutch...you will not even need to remove the transmission or the upper tranmission mounts and shims.

These are the differences in the rear hanger bars and outer connectors to the body. The lower one circled in yellow "should" be yours

This shows the tailcone mounts. Typically yours will have either #1 or $7 inthe red circles. The later models have a tail cone plate with a rubber bumper shown in yellow

Notice the parts numbered #24. These are the shims that set the centralized "height" of the entire drivetrain package. Yours will have those.

There are three main ways to seperate the trnmission and engine and do the clutch. Two of them are a pain in the ass and should not be used unless you have to.
The third is quite simple and is one of the details built into this car for ease of maintenance. It took me years to learn about that one!

I am out of time tonight butwill list the order of events tomorrow.

I have a HUGE how to thread on all of this that I will link to as well. Go by whats in this thread first because it will be just about what you are asking for. The other thread is DEEP.

Ray

Tue Jul 23, 2024 10:47 pm

Hi Ray,

Ok, heres a bit of a summary so that you know the "lay of the land" with my car.

The car is a manual transmission.

The original engine (V series) was replaced with an 1800 Type 4 engine.

My Chassis number is:

429040130

I have had a good read of your post and I was trying to match up what was detailed in the parts diagrams and what I have in my car and the following is what I have found:

1. I do NOT have a Carrier - Transmission mount (411 399 143)
2. I DO have a solid front gearbox mount (411 399 101B)
3. I can't see any Limiting Flange (411 301 401)
4. I do NOT have a Transmission Carrier (411 399 251)
5. I have solid alloy mounts attached to a "pressed" steel hanger bar 921 199 231) - see attached images.

I have attached a couple of photos of the front trans mount and the solid allow hanger mounts for your comments.

The car is driving fine and changes gears fine as well.

Cheers
Greg

Wed Jul 24, 2024 12:08 pm

lateral wrote: Hi Ray,

Ok, heres a bit of a summary so that you know the "lay of the land" with my car.

The car is a manual transmission.

The original engine (V series) was replaced with an 1800 Type 4 engine.

My Chassis number is:

429040130

I have had a good read of your post and I was trying to match up what was detailed in the parts diagrams and what I have in my car and the following is what I have found:

1. I do NOT have a Carrier - Transmission mount (411 399 143)
2. I DO have a solid front gearbox mount (411 399 101B)
3. I can't see any Limiting Flange (411 301 401)
4. I do NOT have a Transmission Carrier (411 399 251)
5. I have solid alloy mounts attached to a "pressed" steel hanger bar 921 199 231) - see attached images.

I have attached a couple of photos of the front trans mount and the solid allow hanger mounts for your comments.

The car is driving fine and changes gears fine as well.

Cheers
Greg

Ok...a handul of things.

First....I am missing a page of part #'s for the first diagram. Let me put those up now. The page with the red rim around in my last post is the missing part # list for the first diagram.

This sounds like your entire drivetrain package is SUSPENDED between the nearly solid tailcone mount 411 399 101 A or B and the rear hanger bar with the solid aluminum mounts. That is a late model hanger bar # 021 199 203 E.

This is NOT GOOD actually. So....you need to see if there are a couple of large bolt holes in your chassis about the area where the transmission case bolts to the engine. But I think yours will not have the holes for an upper mounting bar.

Looking in the parts catalog....I think yours is the way it is supposed to be. I "think"...that the very early cars used no upper mounting cross member over the transmission to engine joint. The part # for the crossmember that mounts to this area is 411 399 143.

It is listed as installed FROM chassis # 410 2000 001. I believe that makes it 1970 and onwards.

What this means is that what transmission mountings you do have need to be as correct as possible.

What VW found is that without that center mounting bar crossmember, too much weight and flex gets transfered to the transmission case. The main driveshaft spans from the end of teh crankshaft all the way to the tailcone of the transmission. When the transmission case flexes from not enough support is causes wear and alignment issues to the gears and bearings. In extreme cases it causes cracks and damage.

So, later models all had three point drivetrain package mountings....these three points were:
1. The tail cone mounting
2. The crossmember at the transmission to engine joint.
3. The rear hanger bar of the engine.

Very quickly they figured out that mounting the tailcone semi-rigidly like yours is....put the same amount of tension on the transmission anyway.

So...they changed to the use of the "limiting flange" part # 411 301 401 for the tail cone mounting.

That part...is poorly named. What the diagram does not show is that this limiting flange (which is teh same for 004 manual and automatic)....has what is basically a rubber knob on it facing forward that fits into the socket in the rear suspension crossmember...but....when the drivetrain is properly adjusted.....this rubber knob does not touch the walls of the socket in the suspension mounting. It floats. It allows about 1-2mm (there is a spec) of movement in any direction.

So as the drivetrain package moves around while you drive and shift.....the limiting flange allows a little movement but arrests...or "limits" that movement to about 2mm in any direction. Hence the name.

But what this does is that it makes the drivetrain mounting into a "two point" suspension system.

Where the main center of balance is is at the joint between transmion and engine. The upper hanger crossmeber (which you do not have on yours) suspends the weight of whole package and has a pair of rubber bushings or eyes there to allow a little flex and get rid of transmitted vibration.

The rear hanger bar ...as noted in my last post....is kind of a bumper as well. The rubber bushings between the bar and the engine allow some compression flex and even have a specification for how much compression crush they should have when properly adjusted...at the outer ends where they mount to the body of the car.

So ....to sum up....all of the late model drivetrain mountings from about 1970...manul or automatic....actually float a little at each end and are suspended/balanced around teh center hanger bar over the transmission.

What this also caused VW to have to do....is make a very strange and hard to adjust shift linkage between the shifter rod and the transmission shift rod. Its is a floating socket...to work with the few millimeters of float of the whole drivetrain package.

Yours is suspended semi-rigidly....so I also suspect that you have this type of shift coupler in yellow below

So, your rigid alloy mounts on your rear hanger bar are interesting. I have been thinking about doing that on mine for a while simply because it would allow more precision in adjusting my drivetrain because the currently manufactured bushings are all over the planet in hardness and compression and they do not last long.

So to give you a play by play of engine removal for clutch...the last two pictures I would like you to post are a picture of your shift coupler shown in the diagram above and the mounts at the ends of your hange bars in the circle in the diagram below. In other words I need to know what is attching your rear engine hanger bar to the body and if it has any adjustments.

Ray

Wed Jul 24, 2024 5:45 pm

Hi Ray,

Here is a bit of a summary of replies:

1. Yes, I do have the later style of hanger bar that I think comes from the Kombi (Type 2) engine that has been installed. In Australia, we call these "moustache bars". Sorry for the confusion. I was working on my 1970 Type 3 Notch and had a 'seniors moment" as the Type 3 uses the pressed hanger bar. Please see photo.

2. I have the early style of Shift coupler as per the attached photo.

3. See the photo of the mounts at the end of the hanger bar.

4. I do not have any mounting holes above the transmission bell housing as per photo.

Wed Jul 24, 2024 7:00 pm

Ok!
Great! You do have adjustments at the end of teh mustache bar where it atatches to the body. At least for sure you have side to side adjustments and you should have a little up and down in the two bolts on each end....and I THINK...that the nut on top of the end yoke at each end of the mustache bar "MAY" allow some up and down.

I have only owned one car with your early set up....a late 1969 Two door 411 in pieces.

I will have a complete list for pulling engine and changing clutch in the am. Ray

Wed Jul 24, 2024 7:06 pm

Thanks Ray!

Fri Jul 26, 2024 10:22 am

Ok, I am going to give two answers here,. This one will be short and is about drivetrain adjustment issues....the ability and need to adjust.

I want to say this first because my main answer is long and I do not want this point to get lost in the clutter....as it IS the whole point of all of this really.

From looking at your pictures, youdo have some "minor" drivetrain package alignment issues. These need to be fixed.

They are not hard to fix at all and once you get to the point of putting it all back together after getting the clutch in ....we can talk about what you need to adjust and how to do it. Its not hard and only takes a few minutes really.

Here is the issue:

This crappy sketch is looking at the rear beam, the bushing type you have and the end of the transmission from the side.

It illustrates what happens when the engine is lifted up too high at the mustache bar in the rear of the car.

It tilts the tailcone and shifter rod downward at an angle making it meet up with teh shift rod and coupler from the shifter at an angle. Some of this can be made up for in the flex of the coupler and shifter adjustment....but not very much.

I did not include a sketch here looking from above showing the same effect happening at the tail cone from side to side adjustment issues...caused by slewing the whole drive train package either left or right at the mustache bar end mounts...but its the same issue and we already know for sure you have some adjustment left and right at the mustache bar mounts. We just need to make sure you look for it.

Here is what I see looking at your pictures that tells me you are slightly out of alignment:

The top picture is just what you posted for reference. The lower picture shows that the plate touching the transmission itself is misaligned to the plate bolted to the rear beam and its stretching/squishing the bonded rubber bushing in between. The red arrow points out that the bushing is trying to separate from the plate on the transmission side.

You need a little adjustment. The engine should come down slightly or the tail of the transmission should come up a little or a combination of both.

In later model cars....the center hanger bar over the transmission (which you do not have) accomplishes a lot of this by allowing the whole package to "pivot" around the center point of that middle hanger. After that, the vertical adjustment at the ends of the mustache bar is just fine tuning.

It does not take much. If you can adjust a little at the top bolt on the hangers for your mustache bar....you can probably do the rest by grinding/shaving the alloy blocks in the center of the mustache bar.

What I would do is during adjusting....remove the alloy blocks and use stacks of washers on the studs to find the thickness required to set the height adjustment...and then alter the alloy blocks and put them back in.

The main answer will come shortly. Ray

Fri Jul 26, 2024 2:12 pm

Thanks Ray

All of what you say makes sense and I really appreciate the detail.

Do you think I need to replace the front Transmission mount?

I have 2 NOS front Transmission mounts but would rather not remove the gearbox if I didn’t need to.

I’ll check to 2 rear moustache bar mounts to see if there are any washers/shims installed anywhere that could be removed to drop the engine a little bit.

Update:

I just checked the rear hanger mounts (at the end) and there is no vertical adjustment. ie: shims etc

Cheers
Greg

Fri Jul 26, 2024 5:19 pm

lateral wrote: Thanks Ray

All of what you say makes sense and I really appreciate the detail.

Do you think I need to replace the front Transmission mount?

I have 2 NOS front Transmission mounts but would rather not remove the gearbox if I didn’t need to.

I’ll check to 2 rear moustache bar mounts to see if there are any washers/shims installed anywhere that could be removed to drop the engine a little bit.

Update:

I just checked the rear hanger mounts (at the end) and there is no vertical adjustment. ie: shims etc

Cheers
Greg

The transmission tailcone mount looks fine. Did you check on top of the rear hanger mounts? The book shows a bolt and washer on the top of these but I do not know exactly how they are put together.

The other thing to look at, the type of mustache har you have.....on the late 411 and 412....the end of the bar where those two cross bolts goes....have oval holes especially for doing vertical adjustment.

Does yours have oval holes for those bolts or round ones?

Either way it's not a problem. If the rear mustache bar end mounts are fixed and cannot be adjusted then what is holding the engine at its current height is the two alloy blocks in the center.

As I noted....I would temporarily remove those when you are reinstalling the engine after the clutch work.....and use stacks of washers to see what thickness gives the correct adjustment at the tailcone bushing. Then transfer that thickness to the alloy blocks and reinstall them. Ray

Fri Jul 26, 2024 6:32 pm

Hi Ray,

I did check the top of the hanger bar mounts and there is no bolt or washer.

Have a look at the photo from my endoscope.

The top looks the same a a Type 3 mount.

Also, I checked how the ends of the hanger bar are attached to the mounts and each end has 2 round shanked bolts that go through round holes....so no vertical adjustment.

I thought that I would check to see how much the engine needed to be lowered by using my transmission jack to hold the engine in place whilst I undid the 4 bolts on the end of the hanger bar and then gently lowered the engine and refit one of the bolts in each end but one hole lower.

Please see the following photos:

It seemed to reduce the "gap".

Sun Jul 28, 2024 1:54 pm

As I noted in my last post, like most of my stuff this may be a little long but hopefully the narrative will help you understand what you need to do.

One thing that kind of helps illustrate what the drivetrain position and adjustment on these cars is all about is this thread link. A note about that thread. In the first paragraph when I note that early cars (1968 and 1969) had the “four bolt” solid tail cone mount….my statement about that is incorrect.

Only the AUTOMATIC transmissions had that four bolt rigid mount. The 004 manual transmission cars had the flat bushing with the locating knob and bumper like the car that this thread is for.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620282&highlight

Ok, so the early cars like yours are in several ways, simpler and easier to work on than the later models of ~1970 and onwards. However, they have a couple of what “might” be considered disadvantages that you may need to pay attention to.

The main differences are in the bushings and how the exact position of the drivetrain package is adjusted. The adjustment is important as it keeps load and twisting force off of both the transmission and the shift linkage.

The way the transmission and engine as a “unit”…I will just refer to it as the drivetrain package….is suspended or mounted (specifically the manual transmission for this discussion) had issues with the transmission case being a little too flexible (so it is said in excerpts of several manuals and articles over the years).

Once you get inside of one and see how its assembled…its nothing at all like any other ACVW transmission….you can easily see that if the entire weight of the whole drivetrain package is allowed to bear mostly on the transaxle, it can flex and any flexing can cause alignment and sideloading issues to the main gear stack and the pinion bearings in the differential.

However….with all of that being said….I do not know for sure if all of the position adjustments and extra suspension components of the later model drivetrain package were done just for better drivability and lower vibration, or for preventing actual internal wear from flexing on the transmission, or simply for making it easier to service at dealers and mechanics without causing damage. I will explain that last one.

Looking into that last statement, It may easily be that it was mostly just for less transmitted noise and vibration. There were several items whose form and engineering in the early cars were upgraded to make a smoother, quieter and more luxurious ride as that was the market where this car was aimed.

An example of that is the early friction bearing strut mounts which longevity and simplicity wise…I actually really like because they were bulletproof if you kept them lubed. However, they allowed a little more steering play and vibration at some speeds and on some roads especially on early cars that had bias ply tires.

The later model shift linkage that was required to work with the “semi-floating” late model drivetrain package suspension bushings….certainly would have been a little more quiet and have less vibration than the early shift linkage and bushings that your early car has but they are more complicated to get adjusted right.

The comment about making it easier to service comes from the fact that with late model cars that have the suspension cross member over the transmission to engine joint are so much easier to change a clutch in.

You can literally just pull the drive shaft out through the access hole, unbolt the rear hanger bar end mounts and unbolt only the heat exchanger tubes and the accelerator cable. If the fuel lines have enough slack in them (and they generally did) you can then slide the engine rearward a mere two inches. drop the engine down about 6 inches and slide it rearward a few more inches and you can put a flywheel lock on and remove the clutch easily in that limited space. You can make a clutch job a 1.5 to 2 hour job. I have done that.
It can be done with the earlier cars with no crossmember but you have to support the transmission somehow.

What I am about to write will help to understand the differences between early and late models before we get into what to do for your clutch.

These are the ways on the LATER MODELS (that had full three point drivetrain package adjustability) to remove the engine to change the clutch:
The object here of these methods is just to change JUST the clutch and/or flywheel and seals if needed and not have to remove the axle shafts and complete transmission.

1. Method #1: This method is the worst one and the way I did it for years because there were just not enough books around for me to know any better. I started out driving automatic versions of 411/412 for years before getting a manual transmission and always did it this way and the final steps on reassembly were a miserable pain in the ass. I carried this method with me when I changed over to a manual transmission.

To get started, jack the car up on stands so the tires are about 6” off the floor. I like to remove the wheels for easier access but you can do it with them on as well.
You first disconnect everything from the engine that will keep you from moving it away from the transmission or it will be too tall to clear the sheet metal of the rear valance.

On top of the engine, mainly you need to take the oil chimney off so it does not strike the body because you will not have much clearance. Remove the boot to the TB from the air cleaner, pull off the distributor cap and wires.
Down below, disconnect the fuel lines and plug them and disconnect the accelerator cable and just pull the elbows off of the heater pipes on the heat exchangers below. Unplug the fuel injection harness at the ECU.

If you have a sedan, just pull the ECU out of its hole in the left hand side of the engine compartment and lay it on the engine so you can move it around without having to pull any of the wires loose from the engine or unplug the ECU. If you have wagon/variant you may be better off to unplug the ECU and feed it back through the hole in the body or you can unplug all of the components from the engine.
Typically, if it’s just a clutch replacement, I make some slack on the variant cars and just back the engine off and down enough to work on the clutch under the car and the injection system stays connected. Unplug the wires from the EFI relay on the fire wall, remove the plug from the alternator regulator and remove the wires from the coil, oil pressure switch and back up lights. Pull the vacuum lines from components attached to the firewall like the MPS
Remove the gasoline heater exhaust pipe as it will be in the way. Remove the top half-moon bolt on the starter on the right hand side, the top bolt on the left, the two nuts on the bottom side of the bell housing. Put a jack under the engine to support it. At each end of the mustache bar, remove the lower vertical 13mm nut on each side. Do not mess with the top vertical 13mm nut. Remove the two 8mm cross bolts on each end of the mustache bar. This is for the later model mustache bar end supports.

On the early models, just remove the two horizontal 8mm cross bolts on each end and leave the rest of the attaching fork bolted to the body so you do not change the adjustment position (more on that later).
On an automatic transmission, remove the three bolts on the torque converter through the access hole in the bell housing flange under the #3 fuel injection runner.
Remove the rear cheese-grater fence behind the muffler. Remove the three pieces of rear sheet metal near the fan and alternator as well as all of the air inlet trunking (obviously) so you are looking at the muffler from above.

The engine is now loose from the transmission….BUT BUT BUT….it will not YET drop down and allow you to pull the engine rearward….because…..the transmission (remember this is the late models we are talking about for the moment) is suspended with two large rubber bushings to the crossmember above the transmission. In the yoke at each end of the crossmember is where each bonded bushing fits.

In order to lower the engine, you MUST lower the transmission slightly as well. So, you pop out the two big rubber plugs in the sheet metal and access the big bolt that connects each bushing to….either the two yokes on each side on the automatic or goes through the two eyes in the top of a manual transaxle.
Then, with the jack…you can now lower the entire drivetrain package down…about 2-3 inches MAXIMUM.

AND HERE IS THE HUGE RISK…CAUTION, CAUTION, CAUTION!!!!

The tail cone of the transmission is still inserted through the hole in the rear suspension crossmember. You have very limited angle for which can tilt the transmission while you are lowering the drivetrain package so the engine will clear the rear sheet metal. If you go too far and let the weight of the engine and transmission combined hang on that tail cone…..it will break.
Be careful.

Put a second jack under the transmission or a secure stack of blocks to keep it at the correct angle so it does not move. You really only want to lower the transmission which is still technically attached to the engine….enough for the two big bushings bolted to the top of the transmission to slip out of the yokes/ends of the crossmember.

You can now pull the engine rearward to separate the engine from the transmission and pull it on the trolley jack clear of the rear of the car. For more detail, you pull the engine rearward enough to clear the end of the transmission mainshaft which will have your cooling shroud right up close to the rear valance. Once you clear the end of the mainshaft you can drop the engine down farther.

Once I get it where I am willing to work on the clutch ) whether it’s still mainly under the car or I have rolled it out into the open on the jack), I then put stacks of wood blocks under both heat exchangers so it is stable sitting on the jack and will not fall over and I can now replace the pressure plate, disc and even the flywheel and seal if necessary.
So far this is pretty easy. I can actually do the removal in about 45 minutes

The miserable part of this method:
When you go to stuff this all back in…it’s the reverse. Slide the engine under the car on the trolley jack and line it up with the mainshaft from left to right while lifting slightly with the jack and trying to get the engine on the same plane with the transmission.
Joining the engine and transmission which will have the usual crappy problem of getting the engine to the same angle as the transmission and getting the two lower studs on the engine pushed through their holes in the transmission bell housing at the same time you are stabbing the splined shaft into the clutch and flywheel.
THEN THE TOUGH PART….is while getting the engine lifted up…keeping everything at the perfect angle where the two bushings slip into the ends of the crossmember yoke. You will need both hands and at least one leg! As you lift the engine, most trolley jacks will tend to slightly pull rearward. The transmission tries to slip outward/rearward away from the suspension beam making it seemingly impossible to slip the big bushings into the yoke at each end of the upper cross member…anywhere as easily as they slipped out when removing the package.
It’s an absolute bitch. It takes cursing, prying, shoving….very difficult and miserable.
And, once over about 20 years…I cracked the tail cone of the transmission three times and have destroyed the rubber bushing on the tail cone of both an automatic and a manual transmission during this part of the process. All three times it was because the engine slipped sideways off the jack while doing all of this crap.

2. Method #2: This next method is just a GREATLY IMPROVED version of that last one with one BIG…HUGE…difference. I finally found enough of manual to understand what that big black plate was under the rear seat was for and what that screw plug was for on the tail cone of the manual transmission!
VW was not stupid!
All of the above wire and hose disconnections still apply for the engine.
But, next you lift up the back seat, remove the screws on that black plate and with a socket, unscrew that plug on the end of the transmission. Inside, you are looking at the end of the mainshaft which is splined to a hub that is pressed into the mainshaft ball bearing and a locknut. Remove the locknut, the E-clip underneath it….and pull the splined mainshaft out about 4-5 inches. This pulls it out of the clutch disc. The main drive shaft goes all the way from the back of the transmission, through the hollow main stack and pinion shaft and out the front to spline onto the clutch disc. Its about 30” long!
Now, you do not have to disconnect the transmission or move it up or down at all, Once the mainshaft has been pulled out of the transmission about 4-5 inches and is totally decoupled from the clutch disc, you can now simply slide the engine rearward right about 2” (there is plenty of room for this between the rear sheet metal of the body valance), until the pressure plate just clears the edge of the bell housing.
Then drop the engine straight down and slide it out on the trolley jack. Dead simple.
You replace the clutch, make sure the disc is centered, slide the engine back in on the trolley jack until the rear of the cooling shroud clears the rear body valance, jack it up, stab the two lower studs on the engine into the holes in the transmission. Put the nuts on them. Slip at least one if not both of the top two bolts in and tighten them to firmly connect the engine to the transmission.
Reconnect the outer rear hanger bar end supports to the chassis so everything is held straight like it was.
Then get inside the car and slide the mainshaft inward and twist it until you feel the splines catch on the disc. Then usually a handful of very light taps with a rubber mallet and the mainshaft is in place in the disc. Put the E-clip and locknut back on and torque the nut.
Reconnect everything and you are done.
3. Method #3: This method took me years to figure out and I could only do so when I finally got the parts catalog to see parts of the car I did not know existed.
This method really helps if you need to remove not just the engine but the transmission as well and want to pull it out as a unit
For this one we need to detach the transmission from the upper support yoke so we can angle it a little just like in method #1. But instead of taking those bushings loose and having to fight with the angle to get them back in, we leave the bushings bolted to the yoke or crossmember that’s bolted to the transmission and just take out the entire crossmember and bushing assembly leaving it bolted to the transmission.

In the parts list below…you will see that both the left and right bonded bushings, shown as part #17 in the diagram, have a vertical 8mm bolt on each end. I take a 36” stack of socket extension pars and a ratchet, lay on my back and remove all 4 bolts from below. The transmission with the yoke and bushings in place now comes loose from the top chassis carrier bar and you can get everything done without having to fight with the bushings and yoke later.

So, you can remove the vertical 8mm bolts shown inside of the red circle on both sides and the bushings and yoke stay attached to the transmission and you can lower it down just an inch or so and pull the whole drivetrain package rearward without having to worry about impinging on the tail cone.
Alternately, if you can reach them (it’s a little harder with the gasoline furnace piping all over the place, you can remove one large vertical bolt at each end and detach the upper support bar and lower the whole thing down. I do not like to use those to big bolts because the risk is that they are threading into captive, welded in nuts in the body. If for some reason you strip one…it can be a big deal to repair.

Drivetrain package position adjustment note:
Look at the yellow circle above in the diagram. Notice that the cross ways bolt (part #26 in the diagram) is in slotted holes. When you are aligning the drivetrain package in late model cars with this hanger system, loosen the two cross bolts while you loosen the rear mustache bar mountings to make side to side adjustments. Once you get the drive train adjusted properly, tighten everything back up.

In early cars that do not have the cross member and bushing system above the transmission, all of your side to side adjustment is done at the hangers at each end of the rear mustache bar.

You loosen the two nuts one forward and one aft in the red circle and you get a few millimeters of side to side adjustment.

The vertical adjustment of the drivetrain package:
Meaning, bringing the engine down in the rear to pivot the transmission tail cone up or down in its socket in the rear suspension beam…further meaning adjusting whether the whole drivetrain package tilts upward toward the rear, downward toward the rear or is dead level….is done on the top of the mustache bar outer hangers…..on the early cars. It should be but I am not 100% sure because I do not have one to look at. But notice this:

The rear hanger is part # 22 above. Notice that it has a bolt and washer above it #26 and #27. I am pretty sure you can either dial the height up or down or put shims in to allow more downward reach if needed.

Also, you need to remember that there is an adjusting shim on top of both of the rubber bushings on the LATE MODEL cars. You can see it marked as part #24 in the diagram below. Sometimes there is two on both or one side. I grab them with a magnet (they are about an inch wide and 4 inches long) and mark them left and right with a sharpy.

On the early cars you can do this same type of vertical adjustment by stacking shims or washers on the top side of the mounts on the ends of the mustache bar between the body and the two 8mm bolts on the mustache bar mounts.

Now, how to do the early models like yours with no middle support yoke/bar or bonded rubber bushings:
I have talked through quite a few things so far for orientation but everything below the lines below is specifically aimed at your car.
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By the way, the 2nd page of this thread from back in 2019 has a few nuggets about the transmission bushings in it for early cars. It may be of interest. I had forgotten all about it.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

First thing: the tail cone bushing on your car from the picture you posted “looks” a little like bushing part #1 in the diagram which is VW part # 411 399 101.
BUT….that bushing is “supposed” to be for early automatic transmission only, according to the parts book and should correspond to the rear suspension crossmember with the four bolt holes, part #3 in the diagram below which is VW part # 411 506 101 A.

For reference on each part # line if you look all the way to the right you will see a small number that says either 003 (automatic) or 004 (manual)

If your car came with a manual transmission it should have part #1 in the diagram for the rear beam and being early should use part #7 in the lower back on the tail cone bushing diagram.

But it does not matter either way really. The gist of this when working on yours is that whether it uses the automatic tail cone bushing and beam with the four bolts on the forward side of the beam or….

WAIT…WAIT…I get it now!
The lower tail cone bushing picture which is #7 which is for early manual transmission…uses a COMBINATION of the limiting plate #10 (or similar) and the flat bushing with two studs which is #7….and it is possible you have a version of that. If so it will look like this from the transmission side.
https://www.kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/vw-411-sile...7-223-7245

A second ad for one
https://www.ebay.de/itm/171650343841

Note that it has the steel knob with a rubber bushing slipped over it (the rubber busing and knob are on the other side in this picture) in the center to fit into the hole in the later beam and it will be bolted to the studs on the ends of the transmission by two nuts with washers.

So, the same risk will apply either way. You need to keep the angle of the transmission as flat as possible to not break the tail cone that is protruding through the rear beam.

BUT….you can first remove the mainshaft through the access port under the rear seat…pull it out to decouple the transmission from the clutch disk. Then simply put blocks under the transmission pan to hold it level. Slide the engine rearward 2 inches to clear the bell housing…then drop the engine straight down.
Installation is the reverse.

NOTE: From your pictures…yes…I had forgotten that on the later model mustache bar hangers….the holes in the hanger are slotted and not the hole in the bar. I Think you could slot the hole in the picture below that you have the one bolt in, slide the hanger down a little and drill a third hole so you have two bolts in it. You could then do the rest of the adjusting with the thickness of the alloy blocks in the center of the hanger bar

Also, I noticed that your hanger/Mustache bar is from a BUS and not a 411/412. The 411/412 has this forked tab on the end that the bus does not have. I “think” that if you can find a 411/412 mustache bar …you may also be able to use the late model hanger bar ends also in the diagram below that have the adjustment built in. Also the 411/412 hanger bar is a slightly different shape that can also fix some of this.

But, even leaving your mustache bar end hangers the way they are now, I think you can accomplish all of the adjustment you need by cutting down the alloy blocks under the rear of the engine.

Ray

Tue Jul 30, 2024 8:24 pm

Hi Ray,

Ok, here is my idea of how to remove just the engine whilst leaving the transmission installed.

This is based on my repeated reading of your comments in this post and reading the Haynes manual and also my experience in removing engines and gearboxes from Type 3 vehicles with IRS suspensions.

When I remove the engine of a Type 3, I first of all remove all of the required ancillary items eg: heating, exhaust, carbs, etc) and then strap the transmission in a fixed position using ratchet straps. These enable me to gently put tension up underneath the transmission so that it is in the correct position.

I then loosen all of the required bolts/nuts and then pull the engine to the rear of the car. Note that I have a hydraulic table lift similar to the following:

Note that the car is located on a hoist.

Now, from what I understand from my reading, the only difference to following the same procedures as above is that I need to remove the drive shaft prior to removing the Type 4 engine and also the rear grate panel covering the exhaust....

Am I correct? Have I missed anything?

Cheers
Greg

Wed Jul 31, 2024 10:34 am

Yes! That will work fine. Just in case it trys to twist and roll over, I would disconnect the shift linkage.

Once you get it back in the car, lets talk about adjustment. Ray

Wed Jul 31, 2024 1:38 pm

Thanks Ray

It’ll be about 8 weeks before the rebuilt engine will be back in the car.

I’ll let you know.

Cheers