TheSamba.com :: View topic

Thu Nov 07, 2024 7:42 pm

Hi Gurus,

I recently picked up a 356/VW? motor, that looks odd to my untrained eye.
It is a 2 piece motor, but it looks like the valve gear is from a later motor.
What are your thoughts?

Fri Nov 08, 2024 5:17 am

It also has 356A heads, which implies the use of larger 82.5mm pistons/cylinders, which require larger spigots machined into the VW case, but of course larger spigots means there's very little material for the head studs/bolts. Either the case has been machined or the bolt locations in the head have been modified.

The 1955+ 3-piece case rocker geometry only works with 3-piece case followers and cam profiles, as far as I know. But of course VW cams and 3-piece case Porsche cams are not compatible.

So someone has done a lot of machining on heads, case or cam to get all this Frankenstein mess to work together. Prepare for some surprises when you pull it apart.

That said, it looks to be a 1953 Porsche case. Have a photo of the engine number and the 2nd case bolt bosses?

Sun Nov 10, 2024 8:58 am

could it be a denzel motor?

Sun Nov 10, 2024 9:13 am

If these are 3-piece case heads then it means the studs have been relocated in the case. I believe this has been done before using plugs in the original case stud locations and then re-drilling and tapping the plugs/case for the 3-piece case stud locations. I have no idea how well this works, but I would be concerned about it. That said I think that it has been tried before but don't know how reliable it was. Perhaps if someone has tried it they can comment. I do believe that using 2-piece case cam, followers and pushrods would work fine if the the three piece case heads have been successfully installed.

Sun Nov 10, 2024 4:46 pm

I don’t know much about 356 engines, so why does this look like an “odd” two piece motor, to me it just looks like an early 2 piece. What’s different about it? No snark here, I really want to know.

Sun Nov 10, 2024 4:58 pm

oldslow wrote: I don’t know much about 356 engines, so why does this look like an “odd” two piece motor, to me it just looks like an early 2 piece. What’s different about it? No snark here, I really want to know.

The valve gear (rockers) are from a 3 piece motor. You can't just bolt it to a 2 piece motor. Much more modifications is required. Regular 2 piece heads look like this:

Sun Nov 10, 2024 9:09 pm

Thanks!

Tue Nov 12, 2024 5:02 pm

Looks like someone was trying to fool someone ..to me looks like someone took a regular vw 36hp grind down the #s on the stand and stamped the 546 you can clearly see the grinding marks ... than it looks like the relocated the head studs on the case to except the 356A heads if this was a real porsche one of a kind it would have the 356A steel stands these aluminum rocker arm stands didn't come 1961 or so .... and I see aluminum pulley should be cast... someone took alot of time to do this ...but to me it's a custom home project not a porsche factory engine....

Tue Nov 12, 2024 7:16 pm

[email protected] wrote: Looks like someone was trying to fool someone ..to me looks like someone took a regular vw 36hp grind down the #s on the stand and stamped the 546 you can clearly see the grinding marks ... than it looks like the relocated the head studs on the case to except the 356A heads if this was a real porsche one of a kind it would have the 356A steel stands these aluminum rocker arm stands didn't come 1961 or so .... and I see aluminum pulley should be cast... someone took alot of time to do this ...but to me it's a custom home project not a porsche factory engine....

I know it is not a factory engine, and I am not presenting it as a factory engine. So I will clearly say, This is NOT a factory motor. It is not going into a 356, it will be going in a Karmann Ghia.
It was put together by a toolmaker. I was more curious to know if there are any motors with similar modifications out there.

Tue Nov 12, 2024 7:31 pm

IN2VWS wrote: [email protected] wrote: Looks like someone was trying to fool someone ..to me looks like someone took a regular vw 36hp grind down the #s on the stand and stamped the 546 you can clearly see the grinding marks ... than it looks like the relocated the head studs on the case to except the 356A heads if this was a real porsche one of a kind it would have the 356A steel stands these aluminum rocker arm stands didn't come 1961 or so .... and I see aluminum pulley should be cast... someone took alot of time to do this ...but to me it's a custom home project not a porsche factory engine....

I know it is not a factory engine, and I am not presenting it as a factory engine. So I will clearly say, This is NOT a factory motor. It is not going into a 356, it will be going in a Karmann Ghia.
It was put together by a toolmaker. I was more curious to know if there are any motors with similar modifications out there.

Oh it's been done before try visiting the vintage speed fourm look for user OMT he has done this he relocated his head stud holes on the 36hp case so that he could use the later 356 heads here the fourm it's on page 5 you can see it.. follow reading the fourm .link below
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...p;start=80

Tue Nov 12, 2024 7:42 pm

Try looking on OMT PICTURES you will find pictures of his 36hp with later 356 heads just like your engine ..link below your engine would be great for the vintage speed fourm ... link below

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=63470

Wed Nov 13, 2024 2:21 pm

Where are the head bolts?

Wed Nov 13, 2024 2:31 pm

What do you mean where are the head bolts ....on the 356 head the rocker arm stands mounting bolts built to the head stud nuts ..2 in 1 head bolts

Wed Nov 13, 2024 2:57 pm

So 2 bolt heads?

Wed Nov 13, 2024 3:41 pm

Yes the head bolt nut is a 2 in 1 ..the head nut bolts has a hex for mouthing the head stud and has threads to bolt the rocker arm stand to .....

Wed Nov 13, 2024 3:51 pm

Starbucket wrote: So 2 bolt heads?

Here are some porsche 356 head studs/ rocker arm mounts..you can see how long they are so that you can bolt the head down and than threades for the mounting bolts to screw in 2 in 1 .... link below

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1745695

Thu Nov 14, 2024 3:08 am

James Davies wrote: It also has 356A heads, which implies the use of larger 82.5mm pistons/cylinders, which require larger spigots machined into the VW case, but of course larger spigots means there's very little material for the head studs/bolts. Either the case has been machined or the bolt locations in the head have been modified.

The 1955+ 3-piece case rocker geometry only works with 3-piece case followers and cam profiles, as far as I know. But of course VW cams and 3-piece case Porsche cams are not compatible.

So someone has done a lot of machining on heads, case or cam to get all this Frankenstein mess to work together. Prepare for some surprises when you pull it apart.

That said, it looks to be a 1953 Porsche case. Have a photo of the engine number and the 2nd case bolt bosses?

Why not putting away some engine sheet and see, where the head studs are located, or wether the case or the heads are machined or welded up?
What about the cast numbers of the heads?
I had a similar idea some years ago, but after thinking about the details, for my feeling, there is much too less "meat" at many areas of the case. Without haevily welding the case outside and inside and repositioning the head studs, imo no chance. I thought about the idea of 1700 ccm industrial or JE pistons in an early 2-piece VW alu case. (better to weld on). If I remember right, PORSCHE stated once, 1500 ccm is the maximum for the 2-piece case. Even at mild Stamo 1500 aircraft engines with the later magnesium cases often get cracks beside the head studs. Technical very interesting, but too hot to handle (imo)

Thu Nov 14, 2024 11:11 am

wagen19 wrote: James Davies wrote: It also has 356A heads, which implies the use of larger 82.5mm pistons/cylinders, which require larger spigots machined into the VW case, but of course larger spigots means there's very little material for the head studs/bolts. Either the case has been machined or the bolt locations in the head have been modified.

The 1955+ 3-piece case rocker geometry only works with 3-piece case followers and cam profiles, as far as I know. But of course VW cams and 3-piece case Porsche cams are not compatible.

So someone has done a lot of machining on heads, case or cam to get all this Frankenstein mess to work together. Prepare for some surprises when you pull it apart.

That said, it looks to be a 1953 Porsche case. Have a photo of the engine number and the 2nd case bolt bosses?

Why not putting away some engine sheet and see, where the head studs are located, or wether the case or the heads are machined or welded up?
What about the cast numbers of the heads?
I had a similar idea some years ago, but after thinking about the details, for my feeling, there is much too less "meat" at many areas of the case. Without haevily welding the case outside and inside and repositioning the head studs, imo no chance. I thought about the idea of 1700 ccm industrial or JE pistons in an early 2-piece VW alu case. (better to weld on). If I remember right, PORSCHE stated once, 1500 ccm is the maximum for the 2-piece case. Even at mild Stamo 1500 aircraft engines with the later magnesium cases often get cracks beside the head studs. Technical very interesting, but too hot to handle (imo)

To me it's 99% the case head stud were relocated ..not head welded do to the fact if they did weld up the heads to fit the 36hp case head studs the aluminum rocker arms stands would also need welding and redrilled those rocker arm stands don't look welded do to the fact they would need to match the 36hp head stud total different location .....with just a case head Stud relocation to the 356 specs heads and aluminum rocker arms are just a plug and play no modifications....I know that the stands haven't been modified bc I had 356 preA heads on a 36hp case and was looking to modify to the later aluminum stands.. I had to weld up the aluminum stand holes and redrill them it was a pain becausec since I had to relocate the stand holes i need extra material "weld" on the stands for strength it was to much of a headache so I contacted my friend to 3d print some new stands to fit the head they came out nice we made the 3d print work ..the aluminum ones just was to much to figure out till we notice what we needed to do... but we were in the middle of casting the 3d printed ones and I was given an offer for them and sold them .... I was thinking of redoing some ..but me and my 3d friend lost contact try looking for him to see if he still had the files of the 3d print of them with no luck ....

Thu Nov 14, 2024 1:37 pm

I think that is a Porsche two cyl. air compressor note only the one carb.

Thu Nov 14, 2024 1:39 pm

Starbucket wrote: I think that is a Porsche two cyl. air compressor note only the one carb.

??????? Two cylinder lol