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Wed Jan 08, 2025 10:03 pm

Holy shit, this is getting really uglier really fast. Get out, stay safe, and check in if you can. :shock: Please be safe.

Wed Jan 08, 2025 10:30 pm

ditto. thoughts are with you la.

Thu Jan 09, 2025 7:47 am

Yes. Its sadly....only going to get worse before it gets better.

Ray

Thu Jan 09, 2025 11:29 am

The scale is stunning. I've been through some hellacious fires/evacuations, but this set beats them all. PCH from near Santa Monica all the way to Malibu Canyon is... gone. And we have another day of strong winds, though not as strong as 1-2 days ago when water-dropping aircraft were grounded. At least we have a chance now. It will continue for days. There is no defense for this. Suburban stucco/tile roofed houses fell... they were always thought of as safe. But the blowtorch of embers can take anything down. In Altadena, a stone building was gutted. STONE!

Thu Jan 09, 2025 11:38 am

My niece's sister-in-law lost her home and her in-laws have evacuated to her house.

She has already moved one of her cars out of the area and the other is packed, with her valuables waiting to be told to evacuate.

Thu Jan 09, 2025 11:49 am

The personal damage will remain long after possessions are replaced. Divorce, suicide, ptsd, etc. all are part of the loss. Truly horrific .

Thu Jan 09, 2025 1:20 pm

Sadly there is a low cost environmentally friendly coating solution that is made in California that would have protected many of the houses and other burnable structures from catching fire. It works well in fast moving fires, stopping any material that it coats from catching fire as the flames pass through an area.

One of my Clients is working with local Firefighting orgs in Western Canada running pilot programs with this stuff and the results have been very effective. They are now partnering with a drone technology company to disperse it ahead of wildfires.

Hopefully, it will be available for DIY use in the big box stores like Home Depot and Lowes in the next few years. It's been sold in the US for at least 5 years now so it's surprising that it hasn't been used much to protect infrastructure in areas of prolonged drought conditions like CA.

Thu Jan 09, 2025 2:19 pm

Shonandb wrote: Sadly there is a low cost environmentally friendly coating solution that is made in California that would have protected many of the houses and other burnable structures from catching fire. It works well in fast moving fires, stopping any material that it coats from catching fire as the flames pass through an area.

One of my Clients is working with local Firefighting orgs in Western Canada running pilot programs with this stuff and the results have been very effective. They are now partnering with a drone technology company to disperse it ahead of wildfires.

Hopefully, it will be available for DIY use in the big box stores like Home Depot and Lowes in the next few years. It's been sold in the US for at least 5 years now so it's surprising that it hasn't been used much to protect infrastructure in areas of prolonged drought conditions like CA.

This is hard to find, but it is available.
Oddly, there is a movement to ban PhosChek in California. Idiots.
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-07-0...heating-up

Thu Jan 09, 2025 3:10 pm

Shonandb wrote: Sadly there is a low cost environmentally friendly coating solution that is made in California that would have protected many of the houses and other burnable structures from catching fire. It works well in fast moving fires, stopping any material that it coats from catching fire as the flames pass through an area.

One of my Clients is working with local Firefighting orgs in Western Canada running pilot programs with this stuff and the results have been very effective. They are now partnering with a drone technology company to disperse it ahead of wildfires.

Hopefully, it will be available for DIY use in the big box stores like Home Depot and Lowes in the next few years. It's been sold in the US for at least 5 years now so it's surprising that it hasn't been used much to protect infrastructure in areas of prolonged drought conditions like CA.

Well....yes and no. A few years back, videos of testing showed that yes....it works damn fine....to a point and under specific conditions.

In the testing they showed with wall sections with brick sheathing, stucco and metal siding....could be consumed by fast moving hot wild fires even with a water fog from a firehose on them. This is because the actual radiant heat ....a lot of which is in the sub infrared range....passes right through certain materials and is absorbed by the wood inside. It starts burning from the inside out.

So this coating....does stop heat absorption and heat banking even without water fog. These were some amazing test videos.

However, it cannot stop everything. The biggest function that you MUST control to not defeat these coatings...is the actual fire itself should be as far from the wall as possible.
This is one of the problems going on here.
I have been through the pallasaides. Look at the aerial photos. The vegetation is really close to the houses. Too close. Chapparal, palm trees, magnolia, eccanacia, cedar....oil/sap bearing trees and super flammable and hot burning. It should be cut back as far as possible.

The other items and the reason why so many insurance companies have dropped fire coverage for these areas.

1. No forestry service controlled burns. None of the chapparal from the past decade or drought has been cleared in the canyons and valleys. That stuff burns like gasoline.

2. Not enough city water....some political reasons for that...OK.....but how come on site polypropylene cistern tanks are not mandated) You can put a 3000-5000 gallon cistern in a yard with a 10" hatch for next to nothing.

3. How come many of the old houses, new houses and bungalows from the decades since this neighborhood was founded (about 1921 by the way)....have not been mandated by the fire Marshall to install metal or tile roofs?

4. So during the 10+ years of drought and now the past 3 years of torrential rain.....how come no fire fighting reservoirs were being built over those 10 years? It's just not that hard.

The leadership in this state failed these people.

The Santa Ana winds and fire season are real world recurring ritual in California. Too much fuel left lying around and not enough water or precautions.

I feel so sorry for these people and it's still burning ....

Ray

Thu Jan 09, 2025 3:33 pm

raygreenwood wrote: Shonandb wrote: Sadly there is a low cost environmentally friendly coating solution that is made in California that would have protected many of the houses and other burnable structures from catching fire. It works well in fast moving fires, stopping any material that it coats from catching fire as the flames pass through an area.

One of my Clients is working with local Firefighting orgs in Western Canada running pilot programs with this stuff and the results have been very effective. They are now partnering with a drone technology company to disperse it ahead of wildfires.

Hopefully, it will be available for DIY use in the big box stores like Home Depot and Lowes in the next few years. It's been sold in the US for at least 5 years now so it's surprising that it hasn't been used much to protect infrastructure in areas of prolonged drought conditions like CA.

Well....yes and no. A few years back, videos of testing showed that yes....it works damn fine....to a point and under specific conditions.

In the testing they showed with wall sections with brick sheathing, stucco and metal siding....could be consumed by fast moving hot wild fires even with a water fog from a firehose on them. This is because the actual radiant heat ....a lot of which is in the sub infrared range....passes right through certain materials and is absorbed by the wood inside. It starts burning from the inside out.

So this coating....does stop heat absorption and heat banking even without water fog. These were some amazing test videos.

However, it cannot stop everything. The biggest function that you MUST control to not defeat these coatings...is the actual fire itself should be as far from the wall as possible.
This is one of the problems going on here.
I have been through the pallasaides. Look at the aerial photos. The vegetation is really close to the houses. Too close. Chapparal, palm trees, magnolia, eccanacia, cedar....oil/sap bearing trees and super flammable and hot burning. It should be cut back as far as possible.

The other items and the reason why so many insurance companies have dropped fire coverage for these areas.

1. No forestry service controlled burns. None of the chapparal from the past decade or drought has been cleared in the canyons and valleys. That stuff burns like gasoline.

2. Not enough city water....some political reasons for that...OK.....but how come on site polypropylene cistern tanks are not mandated) You can put a 3000-5000 gallon cistern in a yard with a 10" hatch for next to nothing.

3. How come many of the old houses, new houses and bungalows from the decades since this neighborhood was founded (about 1921 by the way)....have not been mandated by the fire Marshall to install metal or tile roofs?

4. So during the 10+ years of drought and now the past 3 years of torrential rain.....how come no fire fighting reservoirs were being built over those 10 years? It's just not that hard.

The leadership in this state failed these people.

The Santa Ana winds and fire season are real world recurring ritual in California. Too much fuel left lying around and not enough water or precautions.

I feel so sorry for these people and it's still burning ....

Ray

Ray

The product is called CitroTech and the US company is

Mighty Fire Breaker® LLC https://search.app/eGhxDH3CbA9n8bdq5

Thu Jan 09, 2025 3:49 pm

My thoughts go to all the people of LA. Coming from Sydney Australia, we understand and stand with you.

We are used to huge bushfires during our summer i.e. now! Our climate is very similar to LA. Hell I think LA even planted lots of our native eucalypt trees in LA which are the major spreader of fire in Australia. But this is our summer peak and LA is affected in winter!!!

In 2019 in my state of NSW alone.- 13 million acres were involved with an estimated 3 billion invertebrate animal deaths.

The Black Saturday fires in 2009 in Victoria killed 173 people but "only" 2000 properties were lost in mainly rural areas where the distances between houses was high. With the fire induced high winds even cars could not out-race the fire front.

What this has led to since has been a number of government enquiries and a significant effort to produce fire area maps with mandatory building standards for new builds to reduce the potential for fires to start and be sustained in a building.

We have always had a very well organised volunteer and official bush fire specific fire brigades and have lots of purpose built aerial resources on standby. We have published daily fire risk ratings that everyone knows, SMS updates to residents to "watch and act", evacuate or it is "too late to leave" messages. On days of high temperature/fire risk we have mandatory bans on outside activities using sparks, including using tools, burn offs, anything that provides a spark. Yes this may seem draconian, but it helps reduce the risk.

And heaven help them if someone is seen throwing a cigarette out the window of a car.

The main reason for the fire spreading is not from the direct impact of fire but from ember attack many miles in front of the fire front. This has led to sealing apertures in houses around roofs, windows and basements etc and even the installation of roof and perimeter water sprinklers using both town water and static water sources from say swimming pools. In fact I live in a bush fire "danger zone" and I have retro-fitted these to my house. New builds have to pass a very comprehensive code-like bushfire standard before building approval.

One of the biggest fire entry points is from under the roof sheeting. Most of our houses have tiled roofing with a moisture barrier underneath, but embers can still get in underneath. A lot of research went into new standards on roof ember ingress. Whilst I do not know a lot about the fire resistance of the bitumen type roof shingles used in the US, I wonder how many houses burned down from these catching fire? Are they flame proof?

With the terrible destruction we see in LA, I hope sincerely that an enquiry into how it spread so quickly is completed and that lessons learned implement new standards of fire protection BEFORE the rebuilding process starts. You only have one chance to get this right.

Thu Jan 09, 2025 4:07 pm

For those of you who are interested (and have the time away from your VW's) here is a link to our state's Planning for Bushfire Protection Code. Very comprehensive and has leant on the learnings of many of the Coronial and Government Enquiries after our terrible bushfires over the years.

https://www.rfs.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/...n-2019.pdf

Thu Jan 09, 2025 4:39 pm

raygreenwood wrote: the actual fire itself should be as far from the wall as possible.
This is one of the problems going on here.
I have been through the pallasaides. Look at the aerial photos. The vegetation is really close to the houses. Too close. Chapparal, palm trees, magnolia, eccanacia, cedar....oil/sap bearing trees and super flammable and hot burning. It should be cut back as far as possible.

The other items and the reason why so many insurance companies have dropped fire coverage for these areas.

1. No forestry service controlled burns. None of the chapparal from the past decade or drought has been cleared in the canyons and valleys. That stuff burns like gasoline.

2. Not enough city water....some political reasons for that...OK.....but how come on site polypropylene cistern tanks are not mandated) You can put a 3000-5000 gallon cistern in a yard with a 10" hatch for next to nothing.

3. How come many of the old houses, new houses and bungalows from the decades since this neighborhood was founded (about 1921 by the way)....have not been mandated by the fire Marshall to install metal or tile roofs?

4. So during the 10+ years of drought and now the past 3 years of torrential rain.....how come no fire fighting reservoirs were being built over those 10 years? It's just not that hard.

The leadership in this state failed these people.

The Santa Ana winds and fire season are real world recurring ritual in California. Too much fuel left lying around and not enough water or precautions.

I feel so sorry for these people and it's still burning ....

Ray

To comment more on Ray's take on the situation from our experiences here in Australia.

1. The Aborigines of Australia who have been here for 60,000 years understood that there had to be controlled burns to reduce the severity of fires. None of them (the ancients) had university degrees but understood their environment. Whilst I do not want to also see burning of bushland willy nilly it must be done particularly in areas of hills and gullies and during cool periods when there is a high fuel load.

In Australia we have planned burns regularly in cool-ish windless periods. It is not always enough though, but we concentrate on a lot of urban bushland where house have been built in the past when they probably should not have been e.g. on tops of wooded hills.

2. Sydney where I live also suffers from cyclic droughts. We are fortunate at the moment where we have had a fair bit of rain. This however has the effect of increasing the growth and ground fuel load for the next drought period of high risk fire.

One of the things we have introduced here is that many houses have swimming pools or water storage tanks. These can be put on a register of "Static Water Supply" which fire brigades can rely on for supplemental water for fire fighting in case local water supplies fail. It is not unheard of that a helicopter has hovered over a back yard pool sucking out water to help fight a fire. Scary maybe but during catastrophic fire, a necessity.

3. Yes we suffer from the same situation. It is complacency from people until something happens near to you. Government doesn't act until after something happens.

New builds MUST pass bushfire regulations if they are in a mandated bush fire area. Yes older homes will still not comply, but that is the role of government to encourage people to consider what they have to do to mitigate the chance of a fire. For example people are regularly told to clear plants from around the outside of their houses, clean their gutters, remove flammable materials under their houses etc. Householders have just as big a role in fire management as the Fire Brigades.

In my case being in a bush fire area in suburban but bushy Sydney, I have a structured "Fire Survival Plan" which I have to intiate. This includes my ability to stay and fight the fire with my dedicated fire pump and roof sprinkers and a safe place to evauate to if the fire front flashes over. Not everyone can or wants to do this. But I will if it is safe to do so. Especially when the fire front is 5 miles from me and dropping embers onto my house and yard.

4. Yes, reactive not proactive government. They will live or die by their perceived performance.

The leadership in this state failed these people. Yes, but people are complacent. Only after a shock will people will start to think about their safety themselves.

The Santa Ana winds and fire season are real world recurring ritual in California. Too much fuel left lying around and not enough water or precautions. We aren't affected by such a wind, but in our area the sheer size of the fire front and updraft creates its own localised catastrophic wind pattern.

Thu Jan 09, 2025 5:26 pm

To viking....

Yes, simple Ridgeline sprinkler bars hooked to the house cistern can prevent the flying embers from lighting house on fire.

Yes....swimming pools and water sources that can be storage .....except in the water poor areas like this, pools are frowned upon. Just think of it as water storage. Put a rill top cover on it.

Better still....and this was what I was speaking of

https://www.rainbrothers.com/store/Norwesco-Roth-Poly-Cisterns-Potable-c73647280?offset=9

On page 2 you can get a 2500 gallon underground polymer cistern for about $6k or a 5000+ gallon cistern for about $9k.

Keep a cheap Northern tool gasoline pump on hand for about $300. For that price a 300gpm pump ...which will put out about 10-20 gpm in a 1" hose with good pressure.....man....2500 to 5000 gallons of "time" at 10 gpm can make all the difference in saving a house.

Ray

Thu Jan 09, 2025 5:35 pm

KTPhil wrote: Shonandb wrote: Sadly there is a low cost environmentally friendly coating solution that is made in California that would have protected many of the houses and other burnable structures from catching fire. It works well in fast moving fires, stopping any material that it coats from catching fire as the flames pass through an area.

One of my Clients is working with local Firefighting orgs in Western Canada running pilot programs with this stuff and the results have been very effective. They are now partnering with a drone technology company to disperse it ahead of wildfires.

Hopefully, it will be available for DIY use in the big box stores like Home Depot and Lowes in the next few years. It's been sold in the US for at least 5 years now so it's surprising that it hasn't been used much to protect infrastructure in areas of prolonged drought conditions like CA.

This is hard to find, but it is available.
Oddly, there is a movement to ban PhosChek in California. Idiots.
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-07-0...heating-up

Stupid and shortsighted in that this ignores the devastating, widespread environmental damage that wildfire smoke and debris causes to humans, wildlife, waterways, and vegetation. Just the smoke alone can devastate the wine industry for thousands of miles downwind, for example. Seems the ecological damage of the retardant would be super localized, cleanable, and quite minor by comparison.

But none of this debate really helps those who need help NOW. I don't know of any municipal water system, anywhere, that could keep up with this sort of demand, rendered even more futile by hurricane force winds. When you have STONE BUILDINGS getting incinerated, you're talking the same sort of damage as a nuke, basically.

Thu Jan 09, 2025 6:20 pm

I guess the fire retardant debate is a good one, but from experience it is not treating the cause. It is to an extent reactionary.

It's like giving people a parachute because the airplane engine keeps failing. Well fix the engine so that you don't have to rely on the parachute as last resort.

Just as in our VW's where you need air, fuel and ignition, we can only really control the fuel and ignition to a certain extent to control wildfires. Better to look at how to fix that in the future.

Regarding the water, I wholeheartedly agree. There's not much anyone can do once that fire started. On some videos we see, there are firefighters pouring water onto a structure that is totally involved in fire. You aren't going to stop it and you'd be better off abandoning that one and look for the next unburnt property in the firing line that you MIGHT be able to save.

It is devastating to see how many lives have been touched by these fires. I hope some good can come of this.

Stay safe!

Thu Jan 09, 2025 6:22 pm

Tram wrote:

Stupid and shortsighted

like everything the west coast does

They have abandoned their forest management to the point this shit is largely preventable (minus arson I suppose)

They would rather spend billions on a fucking train to nowhere instead of drilling wells and/or doing other meaningful upgrades and lastly, they keep overbuilding

I feel bad for the loss of life, but beyond that I could give a shit about the rest of it. Perhaps they will get 750 bux and a pat on the head like the hurricane victims got.

Thu Jan 09, 2025 6:35 pm

skills@eurocarsplus wrote: Tram wrote:

Stupid and shortsighted

like everything the west coast does

They have abandoned their forest management to the point this shit is largely preventable (minus arson I suppose)

They would rather spend billions on a fucking train to nowhere instead of drilling wells and/or doing other meaningful upgrades and lastly, they keep overbuilding

I feel bad for the loss of life, but beyond that I could give a shit about the rest of it. Perhaps they will get 750 bux and a pat on the head like the hurricane victims got.

Really? :roll:
Your opinion of the West Coast is immaterial here.

Thu Jan 09, 2025 7:19 pm

Tram wrote:

Really? :roll: .

yes really. you really may want to change your "feelin the bern" bullshit, seems a little insensitive given the subject here, don't you think?

but self awareness never was your strong suit

Thu Jan 09, 2025 7:29 pm

A terrible tragedy.

https://ucanr.edu/sites/forestry/Ecology/#:~:text=...20(57%25).

I wasn’t thrilled with any of California leaders so I moved in 1990 One leader of California became a popular president. None of these leaders did some of the things mentioned above to reduce fires in California. Draughts and forests fires are not new to California.

Governors from both sides of the aisle. Pick and choose who prevented forest fires.

https://www.nga.org/former-governors/california/

Why does everything get politicized these days.

SPACE LASERS!! :shock: :lol:

Hoping the best for all suffering from the California fires. Besides homes being burned, people dying, and forests burning. Many working class people lost their jobs. Many different type of people affected by these fires.

Perhaps we go to IAC and talk about this.

http://itinerant-air-cooled.com/viewforum.php?f=3

Bless you Samba members affected by these California Fires