TheSamba.com :: View topic - UPDATE: YET ANOTHER Car Talk puzzler (also VW related)

Tue Mar 11, 2025 8:33 am

From 20 years ago:

Quote: Mystery Mileage on a '73 Beetle

RAY: This puzzler came from a guy named Steve Boyd. As a way of introducing the puzzler he says, "The puzzler for this week was really bad. I felt I must suggest a truly automotive puzzler."

He writes, "When I bought my 1973 Beetle about 10 years ago, the hippie I bought it from told me that the 80,000 on the odometer were original miles. I didn't believe him for a second, because when I took the car for a test drive I noticed there was rust all over the body, the brakes would barely stop the car-- I had my heart in my throat when I stepped on the brakes and the clutch was beginning to slip.

"I negotiated the price down to 400 bucks, and felt pretty proud of myself. I gave him the money and drove my yellow time bomb...I mean, time warp, home. About a year later, I got around to buying new tires. When I called around to get the best price, a tire vendor told me something that made think that, just maybe, I had been told the truth about the 80,000 original miles.

"What was I told?"

Answer:

RAY: The answer has everything to do with the tires. When this car was made, tires were not measured the same way they are now. They were measured in a typically American way, in which the width of the tire was one of the measurements. This car had something like 560-15 tires, which meant that the width of the tread was 5.6 inches.

It wasn't until about the mid-70's that they stopped making tires like this, and we went over to measuring tires in the metric system.

Now, if you buy tires, they might be 195, even though we also kept the 15 part. The 195 is the size of the tread, the 15 is still the diameter of the wheel, which is in inches.

Tue Mar 11, 2025 8:44 am

Except it's not the width of the tread but actually the section width (outside sidewall to outside sidewall)!

Tue Mar 11, 2025 8:51 am

I have

tons, tons, tons

perhaps literally tons of old VW tires.

Starting with 40- plus year old metric sizes I have a set of four Dunlops, a set of four XZX rip Allstates? Whatever the Sears house brand used to be. Then there's a mixed set of XZXs front, Sumitomos rear all in black plastic garbage bags in the loft of my barn.

I could likely scrounge up a few complete sets of Pneumants. Those were Cold War era East German manufactured, illegal to import to the U.S.. Yet... every VW I bought on the '80s had at least one Pneumant for a spare.

I have a very ratty set of Goodyears I use as "roll arounds". They were mounted and balanced 50 tears ago. They never lose air. Anything that gets parked for a while gets parked on the Goodyears. Anything that gets flat towed gets towed on the Goodyears.

When we get into NOS...

I have Michelins. I have Klebers. I have a set of four 5.60-15 Mobil snow tires NOS in the wrap.

Next death wobble Super Beetle I sell as "one owner" could easily go on near NOS tires. It's only four bolts per wheel. :roll:

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Thu Mar 13, 2025 7:36 am

One problem with the puzzle solution logic is that they did continue to make bias ply tires with the old style markings and still do to this day, though their popularity declined drastically after radial tires and P-metric markings came into the mainstream.

Another problem is the assumption that the previous owner (hippie) would've sprung for brand new tires as the need arose. Since we know that hippies are quintessential cheapskates, it'd be perfectly normal to guess that the cheapest used tires available were begrudgingly purchased from a junkyard when the old ones could no longer be patched.

Thu Mar 13, 2025 8:26 am

l like the suggestion that the further a vehicle is driven, the more rust it will have on it.
back in the day, people didn't drive the distances we do today, not even close.
it could very easily be the original mileage on that bug.
my westy had 114k miles on it, when l bought it, it was 31 years old, l've doubled it's mileage in the 12 years since l've owned it

Thu Mar 13, 2025 9:15 am

I doubt that the question is about the age of the tires, I'm thinking the puzzler is that the rim size has been retained in inches while the tire width is now expressed in metric units. I have no idea why...

Thu Mar 13, 2025 9:54 am

oprn wrote: I doubt that the question is about the age of the tires, I'm thinking the puzzler is that the rim size has been retained in inches while the tire width is now expressed in metric units. I have no idea why...

it's probably due to a mix of the romans and british steam railway track measurements - or something!

in fact looking around, it seems that in the 20s, when bias ply tyres became the norm, the US (and maybe the british empire too) were the largest market - so all measurements were in inches and no need for an aspect ratio as all tyres were 90%. no luck finding low profile rubber for your model T.
then the french brought out the radial tyre (zut alors!) which was measured in metric (mm) and offered a range of widths and profiles (aspect ratio) to improve handling. however the wheel manufacturers were still churning out imperial diameter wheels... hence the compromise.

Thu Mar 13, 2025 10:10 am

Then in the 70's and 80's, Michelin sold tires that used metric rim sizes! #-o

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelin_TRX

Thu Mar 13, 2025 11:19 am

anyone else out there had to fit one of these to a rim, l ruined more metric tyres that l will admit to, they have two beads that seal the tyre to the rim, one like a conventional tire, the additional bead was a very very soft rubber, and tore EXTREMELY easily.
l mostly found them on these visions of automotive nastiness
the rover moaestro

and the rover montego

kpf wrote: Then in the 70's and 80's, Michelin sold tires that used metric rim sizes! #-o

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelin_TRX

Thu Mar 13, 2025 12:31 pm

I had a set of TRX's on a Honda in the early 80's, they were the cool stuff in the day.

Early US tire sizing is goofy too, like 30 x 5 yet the rim isn't 30", and another tire on the same truck was 28 x 5 and looked just like the 30 x 5.
Aircraft tires of the 20's/30's were even worse, 27" S.C. or 30" S.C., the rims for those were around 15" X 8".

Fri Mar 14, 2025 2:37 am

busdaddy wrote: Aircraft tires of the 20's/30's were even worse, 27" S.C. or 30" S.C., the rims for those were around 15" X 8".

were those sized by the outside diameter of the tyre rather than the rim, like cycle tyres?

Fri Mar 14, 2025 7:05 am

just the same a most off road tyres today, l see off roaders all the time with, 37's, 40's, 42's there's a youtuber with 54's, l'm pretty sure it's not the wheel rim diameter they are talking about ;)
just the same as those aircraft tyres of almost 100 years ago.
finster wrote: busdaddy wrote: Aircraft tires of the 20's/30's were even worse, 27" S.C. or 30" S.C., the rims for those were around 15" X 8".

were those sized by the outside diameter of the tyre rather than the rim, like cycle tyres?

Wed Mar 19, 2025 12:22 pm

...and another. Please reply to my question at the end.

Quote: My friend Bob used to drive a VW Beetle. It was an old one, from the '60s. One day when he came into work a few minutes late, I asked him what was going on. He said that his battery died. I asked, "So you got a lift in?"

He said, "No, I didn't."

"Well, did you get a boost from a friend?"

"Nope."

"Did you get a new battery?"

"Nope, the dead one is still in the car, under the seat." Which is where VW had placed the battery in the Bugs from that era.

"Did you at least lift the seat?" I asked.

He said, "That's the same question my girlfriend always asks me! No, I didn't lift the seat."

"Did you push start it?"

"No," he said. "You know I park the car in a garage at the bottom of a hill."

"Gee, Bob, it sounds like you willed it to start! Did you even pop the rear hood?"

"No, but I did open the front hood."

"Are you trying to trick me? I know the engine's in the back on a Beetle. "

"No, I'm not trying to trick you. I started the car by myself, but I didn't even touch the engine or the battery. However, I did open the front hood, and I used something I found under that hood to start the car."

Answer:
TOM: When he opened the hood, he found a pair of coveralls, a spare tire - and a jack.

RAY: He got into the car, and turned the ignition key to the "on" position. There was no point to turn it to "crank," because the battery was what? Dead.

He pumped the gas a couple of times, like you would do in one of those old cars to prime the carburetor.

He then jacked up one of the rear wheels, which are the wheels that receive power from this engine. He put the transmission in gear; probably -- I'm guessing -- third gear. If you put it in fourth gear the engine would turn too slowly. If you put it in first, it would be too hard to turn the engine.

What he simply did was turn that tire that was elevated off the ground by hand with the transmission in gear.

He begins to turn the wheel really fast. Once it began to turn, the engine actually started up and ran and that wheel began to turn on its own.

The reason the other wheel didn't turn is because there's a differential, which will only send power to the wheel with the least amount of resistance.

Finally, of course, he would get into the car, take it out of gear, get out and lower the jack down, and if he was lucky he would drive to work without stalling.

Has anyone here started their VW this way?

Wed Mar 19, 2025 12:46 pm

I have seen mention of it before as there's this video claiming to do it...and yet there's an obvious bit of editing so you don't see the crucial moment.

it would not be as described in the puzzler, 'he begins to turn the wheel really fast' :lol:

much easier to use a pull cord on the generator pully - I've done that...

Wed Mar 19, 2025 1:23 pm

Sounds like work, I'd rather push, or better yet maintain the charging system so I didn't get in to that situation.

Wed Mar 19, 2025 2:20 pm

KTPhil wrote: Has anyone here started their VW this way?
No but I have thought about it and if I were alone that is what I would do now. I have though, pushed my Beetle as fast as I could, jumped in pushed the clutch, stuck it in gear and popped the clutch. Try that with your modern Whiz Bang with all the safety lock outs!

Too old and out of shape for that now...

Wed Mar 19, 2025 3:07 pm

oprn wrote: KTPhil wrote: Has anyone here started their VW this way?
No but I have thought about it and if I were alone that is what I would do now. I have though, pushed my Beetle as fast as I could, jumped in pushed the clutch, stuck it in gear and popped the clutch. Try that with your modern Whiz Bang with all the safety lock outs!

Too old and out of shape for that now...

It works, was forced to test it that way, in the sand, alone, in Moldova, car push impossible, 3trd gear is ideal! 56 standard, 6 Volt, 2013, easy peacy!

Wed Mar 19, 2025 3:26 pm

busdaddy wrote: Sounds like work, I'd rather push, or better yet maintain the charging system so I didn't get in to that situation.

...or graft in the old crank start apron bracket and hand-crank bolt!

Tougher on newer higher compression engines, but on an old 36hp, very do-able!

Wed Mar 19, 2025 4:14 pm

KTPhil wrote: busdaddy wrote: Sounds like work, I'd rather push, or better yet maintain the charging system so I didn't get in to that situation.

...or graft in the old crank start apron bracket and hand-crank bolt!

Tougher on newer higher compression engines, but on an old 36hp, very do-able!

Low tech is not that bad! Still today!

The charging system was perfect, but (my) human error was the problem. I used the car battery (also in top condition) too long in the night before, sleeping in car...

Well, my 49 and 54 have aprons with hole for hand crank, but not my 56, which I used for a 4 week 11 000 km holyday trip around the black sea, that time.

Work? Not that problem. No need to have muscles like Arnold. Try yourself. Put your car left rear on a solid jack stand, 3 trd gear in, fuel cook open, choke in proper position (not too much pulled out), ignition on, hand brake off and turn-push the left rear wheel, if you have more push in your right hand. It was much easier than I thought. In old german VW literature this "old trick" is mentioned.

But beware your thumbs!!!
Use only your flat hands on the wheel! (in case of push back)

Hand-crank-start: think about VW and Porsche industrial engines with magneto ignition! But the magneto versions need 0,4 mm gap at spark plugs only, instead of 0,6 mm.