TheSamba.com :: View topic

Thu May 22, 2025 8:31 pm

That doesn't look safe to me, and my buggy doesn't have seat belts. :lol:

Yes, gas charged front shocks significantly stiffen the front suspension, more so because your spring rate is already quite a bit softer than stock.

Fri May 23, 2025 5:55 am

Ok but what doesn't look safe? Not sure I follow. Please explain. Thanks

Fri May 23, 2025 7:37 am

Turbopaul wrote: Ok but what doesn't look safe? Not sure I follow. Please explain. Thanks

The stack of torsion bar leaves fit into a box-ish* shape on the ends of the trailing arms and in the same way in the center of the beam. Tightening down the grub screw into the dimple in the torsion leaves then holds the front end together. If the grub screws became loose the front suspension could shimmy and if they come out the the front end could slide apart while driving. So, it is important that those grub screws tighten down solid on a stack of torsion leaves. On the ball joint front end the very top and bottom leaf on each stack is narrower and by itself so that can be removed and the stack still tighten up solid (at least that has been done many times and it always seems to work out). When you remove leaves from the main rectangular block of leaves the grub screw goes in extra far and pushes the leaves apart at the front, leaving a gap in the middle. At the back of the stack the leaves aren't supported and could move around in the space. This might loosen the grub screws holding the front end together.

* It is a square box shape on older king and link pin Bugs, on ball joint front end Bugs it is a shape to match the torsion leaf stack shown in my previous CIP link.

Fri May 23, 2025 8:06 am

Ok I understand. If I leave it with the small leafs removed what should I put in it's place to hold the leaves together? I'm assuming without the small ones the grub screw will try to separate them. I don't have the small leafs anymore so I can't use pieces of those so what should I do. I want to make it secure.

Fri May 23, 2025 12:12 pm

I am not sure of the dimensions of the leaves used in the ball joint front end. There should be some sort of filler put in to imitate the missing leaves so the bars remaining are secured when the grub screw is tightened. Someone around here must have the dimensions needed. The fillers don't have to be spring steel because in the anchors they are not being twisted.

On the king and link pin front 4 large leaves and 4 small leaves stacked together into a square. I removed all the small leaves in my first buggy. I cut spacers out of one large leaf someone gave me to fill in the spaces. I then carefully tacked the spacers in place on the leaf next to it in 3 places, keeping the tacks small, under the area that's inside the trailing arm and center anchors, and not letting the steel get too hot in the twisting parts. Then any raised weld has to be filed down to shape so it fits. Before welding I chamfered all the ends so it was easier to slide the assembled bars back into place. Since my torsion leaves where well used I could see where the phosphate coating had worn off where they sat under the anchors, so it was easy to see how long to make the spacers.

Fri May 23, 2025 5:40 pm

Ok if someone could give me the dim of the filler pieces (small leaves) that would be great.

Fri May 23, 2025 5:56 pm

On a ball joint beam, if you remove only the small leaves you do NOT need to use any fillers or spacers.

Fri May 23, 2025 7:17 pm

Q-Dog wrote: On a ball joint beam, if you remove only the small leaves you do NOT need to use any fillers or spacers.
If you look at the pictures from the previous page you will see that he is missing all 6 small torsion bars from the bundle. I've seen plenty of people drop the single small leaf at the top and bottom of each bundle, but not all 3 of them from each side of each bundle.

Sat May 24, 2025 6:19 am

Correct. I removed all three small bars from both top and bottom tubes. Never seemed to have a problem but I am listening to the experts. Please advise. Thank you guys.

Sat May 24, 2025 6:38 am

EVfun wrote: Q-Dog wrote: On a ball joint beam, if you remove only the small leaves you do NOT need to use any fillers or spacers.
If you look at the pictures from the previous page you will see that he is missing all 6 small torsion bars from the bundle. I've seen plenty of people drop the single small leaf at the top and bottom of each bundle, but not all 3 of them from each side of each bundle.

I removed all the small bars (leaves, leafs?) from mine years ago. No spacers. No issues.

Ball joint front end is different from king/link front end.

Sat May 24, 2025 7:12 am

Q-Dog wrote: EVfun wrote: Q-Dog wrote: On a ball joint beam, if you remove only the small leaves you do NOT need to use any fillers or spacers.
If you look at the pictures from the previous page you will see that he is missing all 6 small torsion bars from the bundle. I've seen plenty of people drop the single small leaf at the top and bottom of each bundle, but not all 3 of them from each side of each bundle.

I removed all the small bars (leaves, leafs?) from mine years ago. No spacers. No issues.

Ball joint front end is different from king/link front end.
What supports the end of the torsion leaves opposite the point on the grub screw? I'd ever only seen the single small one removed, mostly a quick and cheesy way to lower a Bug. I've only ever owned K&L Bugs and one Super Beetle but the later Beetles were popular with friends.

Sat May 24, 2025 8:44 am

I believe you Brian but I would also like to know what supports the last leaf in the pack? This is the way mine is but now I am thinking about it and from the CPI parts diagram I wonder how it works. It seems the leafs would spread out when tightening the grub screw separating the leaves, unless something else holds them in. Thanks
Paul

Sat May 24, 2025 10:23 am

I decided to look into this and attached pic shows the four leaves without the three small ones still to be entrapped in the arm. There is a small step that the 4 large leaves are held in place and then another step for the two small ones next and another step for the last small leaf. I am convinced there is no need to add any spacers.
So I guess where that leaves (ha) me is I will not do anything differently and leave the stiffness where it is otherwise I would be messing with the larger bars.
Has anyone ever removed an entire stack of bars either on the upper or lower? Would that be way too much?

Sat May 24, 2025 11:00 am

Ah, 2 small leaves add up to less than the width of 1 large leaf. That isn't much of a step in the back but the grub screw will push the torsion leaves back into it tight. Brian says it works fine and he's well known here.

You can remove an entire stack and replace it with a through rod. If you look that term up you will find some examples, mostly used for air ride Bugs, but some have used it on buggies to soften the front suspension.

Sat May 24, 2025 11:45 am

My build is on air ride, but it's fairly easy to make through rods if you decide to go that route. I used bolts with the heads cut off, welded into steel tubing with thrust bearings/washers between the nyloc nut and the opening in the control arm. Smooth operation, no binding.

Sat May 24, 2025 2:29 pm

Stupid question time…
If someone wanted to remove one set of torsion leaves and replace it with a rod would it be best to choose the upper or the lower, and why?

The first thought in my head would be to replace the lower with the rod and put an adjuster in the top. The lower beam tube could be smooth, for looks and so there is no adjuster to snag. Then it occurs to me that the lower arm likely experiences quite a bit higher side loading in turns and they don’t have a thrust bushing between the trailing arm and beam.

Some people surely know more about this modification than me!

Sat May 24, 2025 3:15 pm

If I were to do one spring pack and one through rod, on a stock ball joint beetle front end, I would probably keep the upper spring pack and put the through rod in the bottom tube. The lower ball joints are upside down and with hard use I suppose they could get pulled out of the control arms.

If you use Thing spindles the lower ball joints are right side up ... that's how they provide more lift than beetle spindles.

Mon May 26, 2025 1:49 pm

On a ball joint beam I would remove the bottom torsion springs so the weight of the car is pressing up on the balljoints. If you use just the bottom, all the weight will be pulling on the BJ stud and trying to pull it out of the BJ. On a link pin it won't matter. I've done both, once because it was easier to get to the bottom and once to keep a clean looking bottom tube

brad

Tue May 27, 2025 5:44 pm

After reading this thread, I'm more eager than ever to soften up my buggy's front end. Great contributions from very knowledgeable people.