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Mon Sep 29, 2025 3:22 pm

You need to go the opposite direction. Go as far as you can then remeasure the bulkhead distance.

Then you MUST readjust the free-pedal play as the pedal adjustment will have moved the pushrod. You should also double check that the pushrod length is about 150mm. There is some discussion that some pushrods have been used that are smaller than that.

Tue Sep 30, 2025 8:59 am

Yea, I did go the wrong direction. I moved the stop as far as possible to the bulkhead. Measured free play at 1/32" more than 5/16"--about 8.5mm. So, not much change from before. Pushing very hard with my hand on the brake pedal gives me total deflection of 5-5/16", about the same as before. So, now I will move on to adjusting the push rod itself (see attached photo). The nut appears to be a locking nut, as I can turn it without turning the rod--not welded on the rod. Shouldn't it be right up against the clevis? So, to adjust the rod, I assume I need to remove it from the car? Then turn the clevis to back off the threads a tiny bit, thus lengthening the entire assembly. I don't think I can do this with the rod still in the car, after having freeing it from its clip. I'll wait for your input before proceeding. (I have no idea why this would be missing its boot).

Tue Sep 30, 2025 10:02 am

Lubricate that real good with pb blaster or similar. You should be able to adjust that where it is. The nut should be tight against the thingy with the slot in it when you are done.

Tue Sep 30, 2025 10:18 am

I recommend adjusting the pedal stop first so you have the correct position for your feet. From the picture, it looks like the pedal stop is way forward, meaning the pedal is located backward.

A warning for the case of the pedal too far back. I drove a 1964 in college, and I neglected to adjust the pedal stop where it should be. The result was the pedal in its resting position was rotating back such that the pushrod yoke and rod was also rotating up. The pushrod was effectively the pedal stop. This puts a side load on the pushrod, and in my case, the pushrod just BROKE from fatigue. If the pushrod lifts at all within the master cylinder, this situation may be happening. Be advised and be safe!

This picture looks like this is what is happening. Notice how the push rod yoke is very close or in contact with the brake pedal boss.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/2622971.jpg

Tue Sep 30, 2025 2:06 pm

Make sure your brake shoes are adjusted well, and your e-brake cables are tightened. You might need it.

Tue Sep 30, 2025 3:02 pm

I see some concerns PWS. I notice the dust boot is missing from the master cylinder. Not a big issue but exposes the rear seal of the master cylinder to potential dirt. I notice the jam nut for the pushrod is not doing its job to keep the pushrod the right length.

On the older Bugs the brake pedal pushrod is easily removed. You will find a metal tab holding the brake pedal pushrod pivot pin in place. You just bend that tab up and slide out the pin. With that you can also remove the pushrod and the tab that secured it.

I could not quickly find the correct length for the early style pushrod but I think it’s the same as the later one (only because I’ve swapped an early car to dual circuit master cylinder and it didn’t need changing to have the correct pedal play). The length should be (later type) 143.5 mm from the center of the pin hole to the tip of the pushrod. The lock nut should tight against the back body of the pushrod to secure it at the correct length.

You should order a (or 2) replacement bend dow tab that secures the pushrod in the pedal assembly, I know Wolfsburg West sells them pretty cheap. I have driven with a used one bent back down to secure the pin, but how many times before you was the tab reused?

Tue Sep 30, 2025 4:41 pm

PWS wrote:

Are you sure that the threaded part of the pushrod has not stripped the pushrod carrier itself? Just check. If it has, then the pedal will drop until it hits the nut that was not locked against the carrier giving you a "long pedal".

Probably not, but worth eliminating that.

Tue Sep 30, 2025 4:46 pm

EVfun wrote:

I could not quickly find the correct length for the early style pushrod but I think it’s the same as the later one (only because I’ve swapped an early car to dual circuit master cylinder and it didn’t need changing to have the correct pedal play). The length should be (later type) 143.5 mm from the center of the pin hole to the tip of the pushrod. The lock nut should tight against the back body of the pushrod to secure it at the correct length.

Here is what I mentioned earlier. There appears to be a number of differences with some pushrods (my 150 v 143.5). It's important that the correct length and measurement of these is obtained. See the picture from the previous thread that I posted.

Tue Sep 30, 2025 5:03 pm

viiking wrote: EVfun wrote:

I could not quickly find the correct length for the early style pushrod but I think it’s the same as the later one (only because I’ve swapped an early car to dual circuit master cylinder and it didn’t need changing to have the correct pedal play). The length should be (later type) 143.5 mm from the center of the pin hole to the tip of the pushrod. The lock nut should tight against the back body of the pushrod to secure it at the correct length.

Here is what I mentioned earlier. There appears to be a number of differences with some pushrods (my 150 v 143.5). It's important that the correct length and measurement of these is obtained. See the picture from the previous thread that I posted.

I have not seen any post from you in this thread that gives the factory length for a VW Beetle master cylinder push rod. I just went through this thread to check. The lock nut is loose on the OP's brake push rod, so it is likely not the correct length now.

Anyone have the correct length for the master cylinder push rod used with the cast steel brake pedal assemblies used on Bugs from 1958 through some point in the early '60's? I don't think the 15.5 inch length used on my Berry Mini-T is going to work. :lol:

Tue Sep 30, 2025 6:35 pm

EVfun wrote: viiking wrote: EVfun wrote:

I could not quickly find the correct length for the early style pushrod but I think it’s the same as the later one (only because I’ve swapped an early car to dual circuit master cylinder and it didn’t need changing to have the correct pedal play). The length should be (later type) 143.5 mm from the center of the pin hole to the tip of the pushrod. The lock nut should tight against the back body of the pushrod to secure it at the correct length.

Here is what I mentioned earlier. There appears to be a number of differences with some pushrods (my 150 v 143.5). It's important that the correct length and measurement of these is obtained. See the picture from the previous thread that I posted.

I have not seen any post from you in this thread that gives the factory length for a VW Beetle master cylinder push rod. I just went through this thread to check. The lock nut is loose on the OP's brake push rod, so it is likely not the correct length now.

Anyone have the correct length for the master cylinder push rod used with the cast steel brake pedal assemblies used on Bugs from 1958 through some point in the early '60's? I don't think the 15.5 inch length used on my Berry Mini-T is going to work. :lol:

viiking wrote: You need to go the opposite direction. Go as far as you can then remeasure the bulkhead distance.

Then you MUST readjust the free-pedal play as the pedal adjustment will have moved the pushrod. You should also double check that the pushrod length is about 150mm. There is some discussion that some pushrods have been used that are smaller than that.

Tue Sep 30, 2025 6:37 pm

Plus I referenced a thread on Page 1 of this thread showing:

Tue Sep 30, 2025 9:23 pm

I was hoping to get past an "about" and to a factory number for the earlier style pushrod and cast pedal assembly used from 1958-1964. The image from that link shows the later style push rod made for the later style stamped and welded pedal assembly. Following your link the number appears to be 149mm to 150mm, at least for the later style brake push rod.

At this link is a picture of the older style push rod that was being measured. It was 52 years old when measured so it could have been altered by a previous owner, however, another user further up in that thread measured measured their push rod and got 143mm.

I took a little trip into Progressive refinements and cannot find a pedal push rod length given in the relevant date range around the time of the change in the pedal assembly and push rod design so the previous type may be the same length, but then again may not, as VW made a few subtle changes around the time of pedal assembly change.

VW lists an unidentified thread change to the master cylinder push rod in January 1964.
1. The pedal cluster clutch cable hook was changed on June 1964.
2. The pedal stop angle was changed in August 1964 for the 1965 model year.
3. In addition, the master cylinder end of the push rod was relieved behind the head. Perhaps this is the change of the pedal assembly and push rod style?

Tue Sep 30, 2025 9:27 pm

Do not pay attention to any published absolute pushrod length. Too many changes, too many PO swaps, too much wear in the last 60 years... a fool's errand now.

Simple:
1. Set pedal stop to obtain correct pedal to bulkhead distance (a little under 8" typically).
2. Set pushrod length to obtain 1mm clearance (12-14mm at pedal tip).
3. Lock down locknut and NEVER CHANGE IT AGAIN. Any later change in pedal play should be handled by the pedal stop, not the pushrod length.

Tue Sep 30, 2025 10:46 pm

KTPhil wrote: Do not pay attention to any published absolute pushrod length. Too many changes, too many PO swaps, too much wear in the last 60 years... a fool's errand now.

Simple:
1. Set pedal stop to obtain correct pedal to bulkhead distance (a little under 8" typically).
2. Set pushrod length to obtain 1mm clearance (12-14mm at pedal tip).
3. Lock down locknut and NEVER CHANGE IT AGAIN. Any later change in pedal play should be handled by the pedal stop, not the pushrod length.

It is 5 - 7mm. (3/16” - just under 5/16”) Not 12 - 14mm. (Almost 1/2” - 9/16”) That’s a big amount of free play. Especially if ever second and mm counts to stop! Where did you get that large number from?

Wed Oct 01, 2025 7:59 am

I use a slightly larger number because I lived on dirt roads in the boonies, and the pedal cluster always accumulated tiny gravel bits and debris that would reduce the effective play somehow (wedging in or just gumming it up, and the return spring couldn't quite push it back all the way).
So this way I knew it never would leave the compensation ports covered. Wear and play in a 60 year old mechanism can also cause variability in the gap, so I play it safe.
With the full 8" between pedal tip and bulkhead, the extra travel never meant less braking.

But I agree with your measurement for "clean" environments!

Wed Oct 01, 2025 8:52 am

Since moving the pedal stop as close to the firewall as possible still gave me a free play more than 7mm, I decided to reposition the pedal stop to its original position. In my post of 09/29 I made an error in denoting the photo for the original position. (The first photo is the original position, third is the new). I then readjusted the push rod to get 6mm free play at the pedal. Also, when I previously measured the distance from pedal to firewall as close to 9", I measured it horizontally to near the top of the firewall, where it is indented compared with the lower section. However, if I measure at a slight angle, ending at the top of the raised section, I get a measurement around 7-13/16. So, I think I'm fine there. My only concern is the 4-5/8" deflection in the pedal when I push very hard with my hand. All wheel cylinders and rubber hoses I replaced are OEM. Is it safe to put everything back together? I have yet to attach clutch cable and adjust clutch pedal. I did measure push rod from center of pin hole to tip: 5-21/32", 143.67mm. I bought this '65 Beetle in 1967. In all this time, I recall only once having the MC replaced, and that was more than 45 years ago. So, I'm probably overdue for a new MC. Any tips for installing the grommet into the new MC, also how to remove metal brake lines without snapping them off. Or should one be replacing all metal lines with new ones?

Wed Oct 01, 2025 9:10 am

Randomly changing pedal position and pushrod will get you nowhere.
Again...
1. Start with the pedal stop and get 8" from pedal tip to bulkhead. Have the brake and clutch pedals about even; the stop plate can be rotated slightly to even them up. Please don't do another damn thing until this is set right.
2. Adjust the pushrod length to allow the required freeplay, measured using your hand, not your foot. Look for about 1/4" at the pedal tip.
3. Check the stroke with your foot. It should not go more than halfway to the bulkhead. If it does, check brake adjustments and fluid leaks. If those are right, you have a bum wheel and/or master cylinder.

Wed Oct 01, 2025 1:41 pm

If I’m replacing all the wheel cylinders I would certainly replace the master cylinder too. Inside it’s much like the wheel cylinders and a similar life should be expected. They can corrode in such a way that the top part of the travel isn’t sealing. Another age related failure is dumping your brake fluid into the frame head. Seeing the quality of parts anymore it wouldn’t be a bad idea to disassemble, clean, lube, and reassemble a new one before use.

When the new master cylinder is installed it should be easy to feel and set (if needed) the pedal free play. I think the length of the older pushrod with single circuit brakes is about 144mm, but check that against the pedal location with correct free play. I know that I’ve never had to mess with the pedal stop or brake pushrod when replacing a master cylinder. I’ve replaced Bug single circuit master cylinders, replaced Bug single circuit master cylinders with Bus single circuit (“buggy”) master cylinders, and replaced Bug single circuit with later dual circuit master cylinders.

Well, never had to mess with a pushrod or stop until I built a Berry Mini-T. Then I had to make a brake pushrod about 15 inches long because the pedals were relocated.

Wed Oct 29, 2025 9:48 am

Reporting back, last time, I hope. I decided, finally, to install a new master cylinder, as was wisely suggested by several of you. Set the pedal stop back close to where it was originally, checked the brake pedal free play with my hand, determined it to be within spec (5-7mm), although very close to the upper limit. Did not mess with the push rod. After bleeding and adjusting the brakes, I have a nice, firm pedal. So, I think I'm good to go. Much thanks for your interest and suggestions!

Wed Oct 29, 2025 10:53 am

Glad to hear of success and thanks for posting your end result.