TheSamba.com :: View topic - 1958 Ragtop Beetle

Tue Nov 25, 2025 1:33 pm

I just lowered the body of my 1958 ragtop onto the chassis, and have some questions regarding attaching the body and door alignment. First some background:

- This car was purchased in Germany and was rust free and had had never been hit. The owner previous to the owner I purchased it from had used the car in a local (vintage) race circuit back in the day, and the car had been modified to fit a porsche motor / exhaust. This involved cutting the rear apron and removing the sheet metal to the left and right of the engine. In addition, the front apron was worn and dinged up. The PO had also cut the dash in a few places to install gauges and indicator lights. All of this was repaired / replaced with high quality metal during the metal work phase. No other metal was replaced. The heater channels and remaining sheet metal is original, rust free, and untouched. No other sheet metal work was needed, and the body was straight and undamaged. Amazingly this car even had its original fenders. Importantly, the door gaps were great and the doors closed freely.

- The pan was in great shape, and had its original pan halves. No modifications were made to the pan. The pan was sand blasted and painted with 2k semi-gloss paint.

- All metal and body work was done with the chassis on the pan to ensure proper fitment. Only when metal and body work was done, was the body removed from the chassis for final prep and paint. When the body came back from the painter the door gaps were perfect and the doors closed without issue.

Now to my questions. When I placed the body on the pan, I used the instructions from the Bentley manual (Thanks Jason!) to torque the bolts in the correct order, taking into consideration the torque specifications for the side bolts are too high for today's seals. Here is the page from the Bentley for the torque specs (this is for oval cars, but 58-59 cars are essentially oval cars with bigger windows and an updated dashboard...):

When I was finished my doors were off and wouldn't shut naturally. Here is a photo of what my door looked like (the upper right part of the door hits the body before it closes):

However, when I gently force the doors closed, the gaps looks good:

My questions:

- What are the torque specs for the 17mm bolts?
- Rear shock area
- Rear seat area
- 4 bolts under the car near the pope hat
- 2 bolts that connect the front beam

- What are the torque specs for the 14mm bolts?
- Under the car
- Under the back seat

- What is the best torque order?

- What could be thowing off my alignment? I purchased my replacement rubber from West Coast Metric and WW.

- Do the doors need to be realigned? Am I missing something about adjusting the doors?

- Does anyone have a photo of what the body seal should look like over the pope hat area? Should I see the seal?

- Any hints, suggestions, ideas, or other Samba links are GREATLY appreciated.

Tue Nov 25, 2025 1:52 pm

OK. I'll ask the dumb question.

Did you install the rubber body mounting spacers under the fuel tank and at the rear?

Tue Nov 25, 2025 1:56 pm

There are no dumb questions... ;-)

Yes, all the spacers / gaskets have been installed. All were purchased from West Coast Metric and/or Wolfsburg West. All were in place and in their correct position after bolting everything down.

It all looked right to me and I checked and double checked because I asked myself the same thing.

Tue Nov 25, 2025 2:09 pm

Sorry I had to ask because you didn't mention it specifically. I also looked at your bio and saw how many VW's you have/had and did not want to insult you with that question.

I have had that exact same issue. My body was well supported on a dolly while I worked on it. When I mated up the body to the pan I had that EXACT problem of the doors not aligning.

There is a fair bit of adjustment on the body by asymmetrically tightening bolts down to allow movement of the body, including twist. That is, whilst you can bolt the chassis to the body, you CAN make adjustments by tightening to bolts where the rubber buffers are. This is a hit and miss operation. Tighten or loosen and see what you get. It helps to visualise what will happen if you loosen this and tighten that.

Somewhere on the SAMBA I remember seeing a VW(?) procedure of how you can make that adjustment. You might have to do a bit of a search for that.

I would leave the pan bolts "loose" and then use the front and rear bolts to see if you can get the correct alignment. Then tighten the pan bolts. You may even need to use a floor jack to lift up the heater channel near the door to see if that makes the appropriate adjustment.

Tue Nov 25, 2025 2:14 pm

Thanks for the reply and input. I assumed it would take some form of back and forth on the main 17mm bolts to get everything in the right place.

- What torque specs did you use?

- Did you have to realign the doors after?

Thanks again.

Tue Nov 25, 2025 2:15 pm

Have a look at some of these posts in the search function I used. There is some good info there.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/search.php?q=tightening+bolts+on+body+to+align

Tue Nov 25, 2025 2:33 pm

Normally, I would say the torque spec and order of the oval era is ok. I have the manual for the '59 cars showing the same.
But you know that the new chassis seal is not the same in diameter? It doesn't build as high as the old one and is softer, resulting in letting the body be nearer to the chassis?
And the same time, you are using new rubber blocks on the front axle and in the rear, that are not to spec, as I found out that even BBT does not know anything about the original spec? These blocks are now harder and thicker and not easy to pull by thighten the screws, causing to get pressure on the door parallelogram...

Also normally, as viiking said, the key is to play with the screws in these two positions: Both in front of the tank on the front axle and both at the support in the rear wheel well. These are to adjust the door parallelogramm, especially at cabriolets, but also at the sedan. You have to think about that parallelogram: when you tighten the front screws and loose these in the rear, the parallelogram moves forward. So the door will be lift up at the B-Pillar and vice versa.

Togehter with the information above about rubber, you see the trouble.
I ended up in reusing the original old rubber blocks, as they have been still ok and would now get pressure by the body that sits a little lower in cause of the new not-spec-chassis seal.
Good luck!

Side question: How about the ragtop material? You remember, we spoke about KHM at phone...

Tue Nov 25, 2025 2:43 pm

viiking wrote: Somewhere on the SAMBA I remember seeing a VW(?) procedure of how you can make that adjustment. You might have to do a bit of a search for that.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/looklisten_9/looklisten9_body_leaks_vwsedan.pdf

Tue Nov 25, 2025 2:48 pm

jbannon wrote: Thanks for the reply and input. I assumed it would take some form of back and forth on the main 17mm bolts to get everything in the right place.

- What torque specs did you use?

- Did you have to realign the doors after?

Thanks again.

Yes to first question
Torque was as per the Bentley you supplied, but cannot specifically now remember the torque of the big bolts. Some will be tighter than others but tight enough not to come loose.
Door alignment was necessary in my case because I had removed all of the door mechanisms etc and replaced the hinges. In your case if the doors fitted before and you have done nothing to mess with that then the doors should fit properly after you make the pan and body alignment correct.

Now I did just check the WCM website about the rubber body pads and they use one version for the 46-79 or the 52-79. However the OACDP parts list shows that there is a difference between pre-60-ish rubber pads and later ones. I don't know if that is a big change or just some minor issue. Not sure if it matters or not but may require some researching. Of course if you bought the 10mm and 17mm pads make sure they don't get installed incorrectly.

Tue Nov 25, 2025 2:50 pm

Good to hear from you! And thanks for replying.

Tagging Viking's discussion into your comments:

- When you say "parallelogram" do you mean torque the bolts in a assymetric pattern? For example, tighten the front left bolt, then tighten the rear right bolt? What torque spec did you use/recommend? The Bentley seems too tight for the newer seals.

- I am begninng to understand that this will take time and effort to get the body settled correct despite starting with a very straight body and chassis!

- I am aware that the pads / seals are all different. I noted WW and West Coast Metric's front pads for the front beam are 10mm thick. CIP1 sells a 10mm and 17 mm version. West Coast Metric's rear pads are much thicker than WW's pads--I went with WW given they were close to the originals. Unfortunately, I don't have the originals as they were very worn out.

- I ended up ordering the "titan gray" colored canvas ragtop from KHM (https://cabrio.de/en/). This was the closest I could get to the original blue gray color. Its not the orignal vinyl material, but will look really good against the glacier blue paint.

Tue Nov 25, 2025 2:55 pm

I am assuming the front pads are 10mm. This is the what WW sells. I also used WW pads at the rear.

Im wondering why there are 17mm pads for the front...

Tue Nov 25, 2025 2:56 pm

jbannon wrote: When you say "parallelogram" do you mean torque the bolts in a assymetric pattern? For example, tighten the front left bolt, then tighten the rear right bolt? What torque spec did you use/recommend? The Bentley seems too tight for the newer seals.
Please only see the parallelogram of the door from the simple side view, on each side seperately. It's hard for me to explain in english, I hope you get it.
The link I gave you above shows you the point, even this is about leaky bodies, what is not your case, but the result of the trouble you have at your body.
We also could have a call again, if you like. I'm free tomorrow, the whole day.

Tue Nov 25, 2025 3:06 pm

HA! I don't understand. Perhaps you can send a photo?

I will be in Austria for the Christmas holiday. Lets talk then!

Tue Nov 25, 2025 3:54 pm

jbannon wrote: HA! I don't understand. Perhaps you can send a photo?

I will be in Austria for the Christmas holiday. Lets talk then!
The door parallelogramm is the complete door frame around each door on each side. And this can move, when you make the adjustments at the bolts in rear and front as I have written above, resulting in lowering oder rising up the door belt line to the one of the B-pillar and the same time affects the horizontal gap of the doors top side.
This does not result in changing the vertical gaps that are preset buy a good body work and normally could only be adjusted by forcing hinges before painting.
But use the link for the pdf above, you will se exactly pictures of the settings and possiblities to adjust.

Tue Nov 25, 2025 4:01 pm

Got it! Thanks!

Tue Nov 25, 2025 4:10 pm

It's ugly but also late and I want to go to bed.

Tue Nov 25, 2025 4:12 pm

Perfect! Thanks!

Thu Nov 27, 2025 1:13 pm

Pastellgreen's post intrigued me even if I didnt fully understand his description of what he was referring to when he said "parallelogram". This was my fault, and not his.

Given the time difference and Pastellgreen's need to go to bed, I took his sketch and description and loaded it into Chat GPT 5.1 Deep Thinking (Chat). I provided a description of what the sketch represented, Pastelgreen's description, as well as provided the context for my problem. I then asked it to describe the sketch, Pastellgreen's description, and how to use it and Viking's explanations to help me with my door alignment problem. Chat's reply was very helpful.

First, “door parallelogram” simply means the shape of the opening around the door: the a-pillar, roof rail above the door, b-pillar (door lock), and heater channel.

The main 17mm bolts at the front beam and rear bolts at the shock tower and below the seat affect the shape of the door opening. Adjust one versus the other, and it affects the shape of the door opening, essentially pulling an pushing just enough to shape the door opening to affect the door gaps (hence the description of "parallelogram" that Pastellgreen provided.) I can be slow sometimes on the uptake...

But Chat went a little further, and provided a description of how all of this works and discussed how each bolt pulls and pushes. I opted to go a step further and uploaded a photo of my door gap and asked it to analyze the gap and provide a step by step explanation of what to do based on Pastelgreen's sketch. That is provided below. Along the way Chat sourced its answers from The Samba and Wolfsburg West. Specifically, it sourced the "Look, Listen, Do Better" book posted on the Samba. That book can be found here:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/looklisten_9/looklisten9_body_leaks_vwsedan.pdf

Some more questions / thoughts:

- One of the things Chat mentioned specific to my door alignment problem (the top corner gap was too narrow relative to the mid line and bottom door gaps) was the shimming of the rear shock tower body pad. Too thick a pad or excessive shimming would cause my problem. I used the 10mm pads from WW in the rear, but will remeasure and also make sure my pads on the front beam are 10mm. I was also curious though why a lot of the online shops sell 10mm and 17mm pads. The short answer is the 17mm pads can act as shims if the chassis and body are off. For those that have had to do welding repairs, the thicker pads may be a solution if you can't get your body to settle on the pan or your door gaps are off too much.

- While I used Chat GPT to fine tune the explanation and possible solution to the problem, I wouldn't have gotten here without Viking and Pastellgreen's generous help. Many thanks to your input on this challenge. This is my second full restoration, and while things go faster and smoother the second time around, it’s still a 3-steps-forward, 2-steps-backward process. Just when you think it will be easy--like attaching an unwelded body to an unweldged chassis, you still run into these challenges. Let me know if Chat made mistakes in its explanation. Ill let you know things turned out once I apply this to my car.

Thu Nov 27, 2025 1:14 pm

Beetle Door Alignment Steps

Below summarizes the step by step procedure to adjust the body to chassis mounting and correct a tight top rear door gap at the B pillar on a 1958 VW Beetle. However this could apply to any pre 1959 Beetle (and perhaps post 59 beetles too—your mileage may vary.)

1. Assumptions

- Body and pan are straight and welded correctly.
- Doors are not twisted and hinges are in good condition.
- You are solving a tight gap at the top rear of the door near the B pillar.

2. General Ideas

- Rear body mounts mainly influence the B pillar end of the door opening.
- Front body to beam mounts mainly influence the A pillar end of the door opening.
- The side of the body between these points acts like a flexible frame. Changing one end twists that side and changes the door opening shape.
- Napoleon hat bolts and pan bolts mainly clamp the body to the pan and should be tightened evenly after the main mounts are set. They are not primary adjustment points.

3. Pad Thickness Basics

- There are commonly two pad thicknesses: 10 mm and 17 mm.
- Treat pads as built in shims.
- Start with 10 mm pads at all main mounts unless there is a clear gap that requires a thicker pad.
- A 17 mm pad raises that corner of the body relative to the pan by about 7 mm compared with a 10 mm pad.
- For a tight top rear gap at the B pillar, you usually want less lift at the rear on that side, not more. That means 10 mm pads at the rear mounts on that side, not 17 mm, unless a thicker pad is required just to fill a gap.

4. Baseline Pad Setup

- Install 10 mm pads at:
- Front body to beam mount left side.
- Front body to beam mount right side.
- Rear under seat or torsion housing mount left side.
- Rear under seat or torsion housing mount right side.
- Rear shock tower or wheel arch mounts on both sides if your kit includes them.

- Snug the bolts but do not fully torque them.

- Check each mount:

- If the 10 mm pad is clearly loaded and there is no gap between body and pan, keep 10 mm there.
- If you still see a gap even with the bolt snug, that location needs a thicker pad. Replace the 10 mm pad with a 17 mm pad.

5. Preparation Before Adjusting Gaps

- Support the car on its wheels or on stands under the suspension, not under the pan.
- Make sure door seals are removed.
- Remove the door striker plates so they cannot pull the doors into a false position.
- With body bolts only snug, adjust the door hinges so (if needed if not done during metal work):

- Front vertical gap at the A pillar is even.
- Bottom gap is even.
- The outer door skin is flush with adjacent panels when the door is held shut by hand.

- The only problem you should intentionally leave is the tight top rear gap at the B pillar.

6. Free the Driver Side So It Can Move

The following assumes the driver side is the problem side.

- Loosen the pan bolts along the driver heater channel by about one or two turns so that the side can move slightly.
- Loosen the two Napoleon hat body bolts on the driver side by about one turn each.
- Loosen the driver side main mounts:

- Front body to beam bolt under the tank: back off about one and a half turns.
- Rear under seat or torsion housing bolt: back off about two turns.
- Rear shock tower or wheel arch body bolt: back off about two turns.

- Keep the passenger side main mounts snug so that side acts as a reference.
- Close the driver door and hold it shut and flush by hand. Watch the top rear gap while you adjust.

7. Test Which End Changes the Gap in the Right Direction

You want the top of the B pillar on the driver side to move slightly rearward so the gap at the top rear corner of the door opens.

7A. Test the Effect of the Front Mount

- With the rear driver side mounts still loose:

- Tighten the front body to beam bolt on the driver side slowly.
- Go from loose to snug, then add about half to one turn.
- Watch the top rear gap while tightening.

- If the top rear gap gets larger as you tighten, the front mount is helping.

- Continue tightening that bolt until it is close to its recommended torque (approximately 14 to 21 foot pounds depending on manual and year).
- Then go to section 8 to lock in the side.

- If the gap gets smaller or does not improve, back the front bolt off to where you started and continue with section 7B.

7B. Test the Effect of the Rear Mounts

- Leave the front driver side body to beam bolt just snug, not tight.
- Tighten the rear shock tower body bolt on the driver side slowly and watch the top rear gap.
- Tighten the rear under seat or torsion housing bolt on the driver side slowly and watch the gap.
- If tightening the rear bolts causes the top rear gap to open, continue until:

- The gap looks acceptable.
- Both rear bolts are near normal body to pan torque (around 11 to 14 foot pounds for most body bolts).

- If tightening the rear bolts makes the gap worse, reverse the strategy:

- Back them off to the position where the gap was best.
- Use the front mount to carry more of the load and fine tune, as in section 7A.

The key rule: load the mounts that move the gap in the correct direction, and keep the others just tight enough to clamp without undoing the improvement.

8. Lock In the Driver Side

Once the driver door gaps look good and the belt line between the door and quarter panel is level:

- Tighten the driver side mounts in this order:

1. Rear shock tower body bolt: torque to body bolt specification, around 11 to 14 foot pounds.
2. Rear under seat or torsion housing bolt: torque to the same specification.
3. Front body to beam bolt: torque to its specification, around 14 to 21 foot pounds.
4. Napoleon hat body bolts on the driver side: tighten evenly so they clamp without pulling a corner down more than the other.
5. Pan bolts along the driver heater channel: snug them in sequence from front to rear. If any bolt starts to pull the gap closed as you tighten it, back that bolt off slightly.

- Recheck the driver side door with the door closed by hand. If the gap has changed slightly, adjust only in quarter turn increments at the main mounts. At this stage you are just fine tuning.

9. Set the Passenger Side

- Move to the passenger side and torque its main mounts and pan bolts to specification, mirroring the driver side as closely as practical.
- Each time you snug a major mount on the passenger side, check that the driver side gaps do not move.
- If tightening a passenger side bolt causes the driver side gap to change noticeably, back that bolt off slightly and divide the difference between the mounts on both sides.

10. Final Steps

- When both doors have acceptable gaps:

- Reinstall and adjust the door striker plates so the latch closes without lifting or dropping the door and the outer skins stay flush.
- Refit door seals. Expect the doors to feel tighter until the seals bed in.

11. Simple Rules of Thumb

- Rear mounts shape the B pillar end of the opening. Front mounts shape the A pillar end. Together they twist the side like a parallelogram.
- Use 10 mm pads as the default. Use 17 mm pads only where:

- There is a physical gap that a 10 mm pad cannot fill.
- Or you deliberately need more lift at that specific mount to correct a clearly open gap.

- For a tight top rear gap:

- Avoid extra shim thickness at the rear mount on that side. Prefer 10 mm pads at the rear there.
- Use the front pad thickness and the balance of front versus rear bolt tension for fine control.

- Napoleon hat and heater channel pan bolts are primarily clamps. Tighten them last and evenly after the main mounts and pad choices are correct.

Thu Nov 27, 2025 3:09 pm

That is a very comprehensive answer.

However the way I visualise what happens is simply to think of a sun shade sail fitted to four posts.

Firstly start with a shade sail with 4 identically high posts.

Now lower one post and see how the shade sail changes vertically in shape. Some parts are higher than others.

Now lower the opposite diagonal post and you end up with a twist in the sail akin to a twist in the body of the car etc.

This is all in the horizontal plane but the changes in height at a particular point now will affect the vertical height of the door opening "parallelogram". Of course this is much greater deviation that you actually need on your door.

You can do it with a piece of cardboard and a couple of paper clamps and twist the cardboard around and you will get the same effect. It might help where you need to raise or lower (i.e. tighten/loosen/thicker or thinner rubber shims).

It works for me, maybe not for others.