TheSamba.com :: View topic

Tue Aug 03, 2004 3:14 am

I've never realy understood the purpose of reduction boxes... my gears rev out too early etc. I am wondering if removing them would be the best route to go for getting the most out of my motor? If so... how do I remove/get rid of my reduction boxes???? This is for my 65 deluxe bus.

Tue Aug 03, 2004 4:11 am

The removal of reduction boxes is a subject that had been mulled over for the past 30+ years. There Are 3 main options:

1 change the gears in the gearbox you have (freeway flyer etc) retaining reduction boxes.
2 straight axel kit. (This lowers the bus also)
3 Irs the rear end. (this does or does not lower the bus depending on how and what parrts you use)

Basically vw chouse the gear in your gearbox as they make the most of the avalible power your stock engine has.

With stock engine and running gear you should be easily be able to cruise at 60-65mph.

you could also buy this http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=62-1903706149-0

Basically the reduction boxes lower the gearing to help the small power engine out and they also give groud clearence and height to the bus.

I could write a wole book on this subject, there are countless threads here on the 3 options I have offered. Use the search and read them all.

If you go change to one of the 3 above stock power will now strugle with the new longer ratios, so you need a more powerfull motor also.

My opinion is stick to everything stock, make shure is all in perfect tune and condiction, and enjoy your bus, 60-65mph is quite fast enough. :D

Tue Aug 03, 2004 4:37 am

I've wondered why no aftermarket folks have come out with 1:1 redux box gears. That way we could keep the stock height and cruise at today's shighway speeds.

I agree though- 60-65 is fast enough, especially with the brakes and suspension we have to work with.

Tue Aug 03, 2004 4:59 am

alphaskate69 wrote: I've never realy understood the purpose of reduction boxes... my gears rev out too early etc. I am wondering if removing them would be the best route to go for getting the most out of my motor? If so... how do I remove/get rid of my reduction boxes???? This is for my 65 deluxe bus.
time to read some history about the early days of VW, and generally on the European post-war economy. I think the American equivalent would be the depression in the 30s... basically VW wanted to build a small delivery van, as cheaply as possible, and using as much of existing equipment as possible. which means
the motor was a beetle motor
the center section of the tranns was a beetle trans
the RGB were from a war time car, and allowed the 25hp motor to push around the delivery van & it's contents.
the suspension was from something else already made also.

while in 55 the bus was redesigned and improved, the RGB (new improved version) were retained, probably so they could keep the one center section for both bus and bug concept going.

in the 50s in Germany there were vehicles well less powered than the VW bus. Also, if you consider it primarily a round town delivery vehicle, why go over 50mph anyway? and the roads were not so modern as today anyway. As mind boggling as it may be... the old bus was an eminently practical vehicle at the time. And it even had a heater!!!

loads of info about gearing etc.. do a search

Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:55 am

kavikhahn wrote: I've wondered why no aftermarket folks have come out with 1:1 redux box gears. That way we could keep the stock height and cruise at today's shighway speeds.

The likely reason is that VERY few people would be willing to pay what they would cost to have made today. R&P changes make far more economic sense. Changing to the new aftermarket 3.44 would produce the exact same final ratio as changing reduction gears from 1:1.26 to 1:1.

Tue Aug 03, 2004 7:37 am

Well said Clara.

Tue Aug 03, 2004 9:25 am

Clara wrote: time to read some history about the early days of VW, and generally on the European post-war economy. I think the American equivalent would be the depression in the 30s... basically VW wanted to build a small delivery van, as cheaply as possible, and using as much of existing equipment as possible. which means
the motor was a beetle motor
the center section of the tranns was a beetle trans
the RGB were from a war time car, and allowed the 25hp motor to push around the delivery van & it's contents.
the suspension was from something else already made also.

while in 55 the bus was redesigned and improved, the RGB (new improved version) were retained, probably so they could keep the one center section for both bus and bug concept going.

in the 50s in Germany there were vehicles well less powered than the VW bus. Also, if you consider it primarily a round town delivery vehicle, why go over 50mph anyway? and the roads were not so modern as today anyway. As mind boggling as it may be... the old bus was an eminently practical vehicle at the time. And it even had a heater!!!

loads of info about gearing etc.. do a search

Wow, a "do a search" answer AND a history lesson. Good stuff Clara.

Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:39 am

I don't have a lot of money to that it would take to convert my bus to IRS, but I do have a good working 70 bay windiw bus tranny available for my needs. Would I be able to swap out my reduction boxed tranny and put in this bay window tranny????

Has anyone every done this before? Let me know the outcome.

If this isn't a great idea, how could I change my stock tranny with a low cost budget, to perform better. (i.e. not rev out sooo early). The speed limit here for the freeway is 70 MPH. I want to be able to cruise with traffic.

Someone please let me know what the best way to go for my situation.
Thanks

Thu Aug 05, 2004 4:22 am

You need to do alot of research and reading as i suggested in my first reply.

When using the IRS from a bus, you dont use the bay box, you then use a beetle box.

You are basically embarking down a path that has been well troden. The old path of how do I get my bus to go faster.

Basically the bus is a big brick and is not the most aero dynamic thing in the world so as you aproach speeds of much over 60/65mph it sudenly take alot more HP to only go a few more MPH.

As in a reply above if you install a freeway flyer , this is a standard bus gearbox and reduction box set up, but the ring and pin, has been changed, this now will give to higher speeds at the same revs.

There are 2 main problems with this, your stock power engine will now strugle to have the torque to pull that now longer 4 gear, and the cooling fan in your engine will now turn less rpm giving less cooling air when demand on the engine and heat being produced has gone up.

In my opinion if you go to a freeway flyer with a 3.44 r$p to get the best out of these gears you now need a 1776+ or a very strong 1600.

The above is going to cost a fair few $'s

Here is a quote from the gene berg website.

So, if ours was so wonderful, why did we stop making it for so long? Two basic reasons. It took 5 years to sell 112 kits at a price of $742. Secondly, what we continually heard and still hear from many people we talk to today that want a 5 speed today, is that they are doing it to get an "overdrive". The problem is that "all" VW's ever made already have an overdrive in 4th gear. In my opinion, people who try to install a even higher than stock final drive for an air cooled VW are crazy. Our tests have proved conclusively over and over again that a higher overdrive causes the engine to get "less" mileage, and runs much hotter because the fan turns slower, which obviously shortens the life of the engine. Few people stop to think about what is actually happening when a higher overdrive is installed. You are giving the leverage to the car and taking it away from the engine. Like moving the teeter-totter leverage out to the heavy person's side rather than to the light person's side. Thus, taking more HP to drive the car the same speed regardless of the size of the VW engine. More HP is more heat, less mileage and a shorter life. I tried a bigger pulley to speed the fan up again. However, it took more HP, which caused as much heat as it removed. I have found nothing to cure these problems so simply stay with the factory overdrive 4th gear in the 5th location.

Maybe VW was smarter than many give them credit for. After all, if simply installing a higher overdrive would provide more mileage, longer life and better cooling you would think the first people to do so would be the VW factory. See GB 801-GEARING and GB 801-COOLING for more information.

I designed the 5 speed so people could have a close ratio 4 speed gear box utilizing and keeping the stock overdrive gear in the 5th gear position. Naturally, racers use them with all 5 close ratio race gears. Yes, with our Berg shifter you can speed shift all of the forward gears, even 5th.

The above is from somone who did actual on the road testing.

If your bus is running well it should cruise at 65MPH, many have spent thousands of $ just to get 5mph more cruising speed. and then it probably didant return the relibility or the fuel econamy that the stock arangment did.

:D

Thu Aug 05, 2004 9:24 am

Great info people, thanks for posting it. My question is how fast should I go in a 58 Kombi with stock tranny and a 1500? maybe 55??

I am not used to this much noise, all my other buses were bay westfallias and none were as loud as my empty kombi.

I assume it is heavyweight gear oil in the reduction boxes or same weight as the tranny. I am going to check the levels today since everything seems so loud!

Thu Aug 05, 2004 9:39 am

Not only is it the same weight oil as the tranny- it is the same oil. It is circulated in what the philosoher Clara has called the habitrail system. It flows from the tranny through the axle tubes to the redux boxes and back, as the tubes and bus tip this way and that.

Thu Aug 05, 2004 9:40 am

Not only is it the same weight oil as the tranny- it is the same oil. It is circulated in what the philosoher Clara has called the habitrail system. It flows from the tranny through the axle tubes to the redux boxes and back, as the tubes and bus tip this way and that.

Thu Aug 05, 2004 9:45 am

debunked wrote: Great info people, thanks for posting it. My question is how fast should I go in a 58 Kombi with stock tranny and a 1500? maybe 55??

I am not used to this much noise, all my other buses were bay westfallias and none were as loud as my empty kombi.

I assume it is heavyweight gear oil in the reduction boxes or same weight as the tranny. I am going to check the levels today since everything seems so loud!

stock tranny for 58 is a splitcase and little nut 1.40 rgbs, and 6.40 15 tires (i think). 50mph at ~3600 rpms is VWs recommended top cruisng speed.

slow by modern standards, and it will NOT be happy at 65mph. do you have the stock for 58 trans? what size nuts? tires? I run 205 75 15s on bus 15" rims on my 61... works for your 58 too.

you can't assume a splitty has its original gearing... please... it could be stock for a differnt year.

putting a rubber mat in the back, maybe 2 layers, will cut down a lot of noise. Baywindow ones fit. my 67 Riviera is empty inside... I use it as a panel van/hauler, it's noisy, I recently put two mats in the back (as I sold my storage shed bus they had lived in) and it is quieter now. what do you expect of a hollow metal box bumping down the road? front floor mat helps too

check level at center section.. connects to boxes like a habitrail. if center is full, boxes have what they want.

Thu Aug 05, 2004 10:47 am

I thought thats how the oil got down there, but wasn't sure.

I am not positive it is the stock transaxle, but not sure where to find a number and how to identify. It is extremely low geared any lower and I could skip 1st, but I can't. Sounds to be revved at 30 in 3rd gear, but not too sure since it has been a number of years I had to listen to the engine to shift.

Small nuts - 36mm, 15 inch rims with 165's very narrow original sized tires!

www.heywhatsyour.com/1958_vw_bus.htm

most of the pictures are about 2 years old now, except the last series with the motor out, it in now back in......

Thu Aug 05, 2004 12:24 pm

good lookin' bus man! you'vegot a real solid base to start with.

Thu Aug 05, 2004 12:37 pm

Hey Shawn, Looks good. Very solid. BTW you need to fix your ULR in your sig.

Thu Aug 05, 2004 1:55 pm

debunked wrote: I am not positive it is the stock transaxle, but not sure where to find a number and how to identify. It is extremely low geared any lower and I could skip 1st, but I can't. Sounds to be revved at 30 in 3rd gear, but not too sure since it has been a number of years I had to listen to the engine to shift.

Small nuts - 36mm, 15 inch rims with 165's very narrow original sized tires!

www.heywhatsyour.com/1958_vw_bus.htm
165 sr 15s are stock for bugs, but small for a bus... you do have stock bus15: rims (those big curved rectangle cut out are the clue), so I'd go ahead and get some taller tires... 195 80 R15s are the closest radial to the stock bias, but hard to find, so I have the 205 75 15s (almost same height, but wider)... have to wiggle them in the flat wheel arches in my 61, but no problemo when driving

if th tranny has a row of bolts down th length of it, holding it together at the seam, it's a split case and the original style for a 58.. with splitcase you have to come to a full and complete stop to go into 1st or reverse.

If you don't have a split case, you probably have a 4.375 r/p from the sound of things, and yes, 50-55 would be the top speed for that. somewhere there's a site that tells you how to figure it out from turning the engine and counting wheel turns. maybe 52.. truck I had could be pushed higher, but 52 it sounded better.

If you want to go faster, and the taller tires don't fix it for you, swap out the RGBs for big nut 1.26 boxes

Thu Aug 05, 2004 5:46 pm

I've driven coast-tocoast more than once in heavily loaded campers and single-cabs. With 40 hp's! If you really want to run 70 mph+, maybe you need a Toyota.