TheSamba.com :: View topic - 82 Auto Westy -- too hot!

Mon Aug 30, 2004 3:31 pm

I have an '82 westy that is too hot. It's aircooled. I understand the whole "sealing" thing and what not, however, it is extremely hot and must be corrected immediately. I now know why the PO went through two engines in 2000 miles. This is a new <500mile engine and I just took it on its first long trip. What a nightmare. I've identified some seals that I need replaced.

Temps around town 220-240
Temps on fwy 260 @55mph after 1 hour.
Temps uphill 270-280 @whatever it can do.
CHT is 325-350 in all situations except 370-375 uphill

Is this characteristic of poor sealing? Or would this suggest lean running?

Are there seals around the license plate opening? Mine doesn't have any.

Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:26 am

Is the engine just getting broken in? It doens't say GEX anywhere does it? If it was rebuilt by a local guy stat talking to them.

What oil are you using? If it isn't 30 weight or better (ie 20-50), that could be an issue.

Fuel injectors clean or new? If no, send them to cruzin performance to have them cleaned and calibrated for even good flow and spray pattern. Vacuum leaks? Engine seal good?

Timing correct for your model? Correct distributor? Consider doing a compression test to see if it is the same or close all around.

Do you have an oil pressure gauge in this to see if you are putting out adequate pressure all of the time?

Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:22 am

is the fan on the alt connected to the heater boxes, ie blowing the hot air out? and is the temp been above 90 outside?

Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:37 am

:o Candidate for an external oil cooler! I finally gave up on my air cooled Westie, (parted it)! My air cooled 7 passenger has an external oil cooler, AND the gates are wide open on the air flow!

If those gates/flaps are closed, you will run hot because the air flow is mis directed and not flowing over the cylinder heads.

30w is fine, but 20 50 synthetic is a MUST on a air cooled hot one!
:D

Tue Aug 31, 2004 2:26 pm

Randy in Maine wrote: Is the engine just getting broken in? It doens't say GEX anywhere does it? If it was rebuilt by a local guy stat talking to them.

1000 miles now on break in, no longer local. (LA vs SF). Not Gex, but will double check.

Quote: What oil are you using? If it isn't 30 weight or better (ie 20-50), that could be an issue.

10-40

Quote: Fuel injectors clean or new? If no, send them to cruzin performance to have them cleaned and calibrated for even good flow and spray pattern. Vacuum leaks? Engine seal good?

Haven't checked, but idle is even and very good.
Not sure about vacuum leaks.
Engine seal is suspect and one of the things on order. Also missing a seal around the oil fill tube, license plate, and the air duct in back of the fan intake.

Quote: Timing correct for your model? Correct distributor? Consider doing a compression test to see if it is the same or close all around.

I'll have to check it, but CHT is 325-350, thus implying normal advance and/or fuel mixture, I believe.
Distributor should be okay, but I'll have to check. 1st PO was an anal retentive engineer that went to the dealer until the 2d PO got it and blew it up 3 times in 2000 miles. I believe it was not properly installed in the most recent iterations (cooling system, that is).[/quote]

Quote: Do you have an oil pressure gauge in this to see if you are putting out adequate pressure all of the time?

At cruising speed:
60psi when 180-220F
40-50 psi when 220-240F
20-30 psi when 260-270F

Quote: is the fan on the alt connected to the heater boxes, ie blowing the hot air out? and is the temp been above 90 outside?

Don't know, need to check.
Yes, record temps up to 3 digits

Quote: Candidate for an external oil cooler! I finally gave up on my air cooled Westie, (parted it)! My air cooled 7 passenger has an external oil cooler, AND the gates are wide open on the air flow!

Ordered a single fan pack Setrab with t-stat fan and t-stat sandwich adapter along with AN-8 swivel hose attachments Man the wife is going to be pissed.
Need to check the t-stat gates

Quote: If those gates/flaps are closed, you will run hot because the air flow is mis directed and not flowing over the cylinder heads.

Time to whip out the Bentley this weekend.

Thanks for the tips, guys! I'll let you know what I find out this weekend. Glad it's 3 days.

Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:58 am

Yeah, so the cooler is installed.
230 fwy
250 idle/around town
Better, but not great.

Engine bay seal is crap, among other missing seals.
Is it possible to use a '72-79 bus bay seal on an '82 vanagon?

Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:27 pm

Go back to finding the cause of the high OT.

Go to 30 weight oil or even better Mobil 1 15-50 (or your favorite brand). Synthetic will not break down as readily as dino oil when it gets too hot.
Make sure the engine to body seals are 100%. No abstructions in the fan or vents. Replace anything that needs it.
Vacuum leaks are dealth to ACVWs. Do the "gumout spray" or "propane on a hose" test to every hose for the entire lenght. Focus on the fitting also. I would put my vacuum gauge on the lines to see where you are working from. Vac leaks will also throw off your timing.
Good tune. Timing, adjust those hydraulic lifters, and make sure your dizzy is the correct one and is advancing correctly. If you can't do it yourself, take it someplace that can.
If you have a thermostat in there, make sure it is set correctly so that the cooling flaps are really opening as described in your Bentley.
Make sure your CHT sending unit is really mounted under the #3 cylinder spark plug, not mounted where the Temp Sensor II goes and is giving you good info. $20 for a new sending unit if yours is not accurate.

Keep in mind that OT is RPM related. More = hot.

Does your cooler have a thermostat to send the oil out there only when it gets hot >180*? That is what you are shooting for.

Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:55 pm

my 82 was running hot like yours even had mobil ! 15/50.
turned out to be timming was under advanced.
now it runs around 180-190.
Is your van running at full power? Mine was running at about 2/3 power had troulbe up hills.
Nor sure why my timming had to be advanced but it fixed it.

Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:41 am

:o Nothing better in VW air cooled land like a good set of gauges!
:cry: When you see the big cloud of blue smoke and a dropped seat banging around its a real pisser :wink: [/b]

Thu Sep 09, 2004 1:55 pm

I can do all this myself, just new to vanagons. I have Mobil 1 15-50 in it right now. Power sucks ass, so it might be timing, too. CHT is normal (325-350). I also understand that the stock oil bypass ("thermostat" spring) is based on pressure. I have not checked the air thermostat, flap functioning, or vacuum leaks.

There are gaps in the engine bay seal -- will a '72-79 type 4 Bus seal work for an '80-83 aircooled? I'm not partial to spending $100 on a rubber seal when a $10 one will work.

Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:00 pm

If the seals from the 72+ works,,,,use them
Power is weak on those 2.0l's. Try timing adjustment while you drive around town, keep tweaking it a bit each time, find a spot that it likes to run at :wink:

Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:05 am

Well, I've got an air cooled westy with an engine built from the remains of a fried GEX (the clowns dropped an extra fan hub key between the crank and the hub, so that the hub never tightened down on the taper- eventually sheared off the key and the fan stopped. Just a little before the valve springs lost their temper and the valves seized in their guides!) I put on different heads (and fixed the crank and fan hub) and it seems to work pretty well. I haven't put many hard summer miles on it however.
I'm a great believer in 40w oil. It says so in the older owner's manuals: tropical climate, hot season- sae 40.
20w-50 dino oil is not 50 weight after it's been hot a few times, it's 20 weight.
Synthetic stands up a lot better, but this damn Shell 40w works so good and is so cheap I just use it all the time. At least til the thing won't crank over in the winter time, then maybe 10 or 15w/xxx.
I had a 78 bus that I fried 4 engines with till I figured it out. The Temp sensor in the AFM was making it too lean in the summer. Too rich in the winter, too.
I got about 40k more miles out of that motor after I put a new AFM on it. It was a little bit warmed up with 96mm NPR's, earlier solid lifter cam, 74 heads with sodium cooled exhausts (41 &34mm valves).
And it was worked pretty hard, too. Regularly had the speedo needle up where 100 should be. Took a couple of crazy trips where we drove for HOURS at 75 to 80.
But this one was still not a Vanagon. That's a lot bigger job.
I have to agree with most of the other suggestions, especially about timing and advance.
Sorry, I can't think of anything else that will sub for a real VW Vanagon engine seal. the 72-79 is completely different. It's pretty easy to see why it costs several times as much as the early seal.
It's really important that the thermostat is functional and actually opens the flaps when the engine gets warm.
The 4th gear ratios were made bit talller in the Vanagons, I think from .89 to .85. I think VW made this change to make the vehicle quieter, but I suspect it was a bad plan. If I wanted to drive an air cooled Vanagon long and hard, I'd put together a gearbox with a 4th gear from a 76 to 79 091 trans.
I think if you have everything right, an air cooled Vanagon engine will last a good long time. It's hard to monitor the mixture, though. Steve Dolan (from the type2.com list) had a pretty neat rig that used an oxygen sensor to run a set of led's that showed when his mixture was in range. I'd try to build one of those, too.
A mixture guage and a CHT should allow anyone to keep on to of his engine's status.
Al
69 double cab, Vanagons

Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:14 am

:D I followed KARL one day behind his 79 Bus. It was a very hot Fresno day. I was sitting in my 88 Carat enjoying the outrageous expensive duel A/C that VW put in those babies, but what I noticed about Karl's bus was a slight bit of "over rich" smoke when he left the stop lights.

I asked him later about it. Karl said he richens it up to help it run cooler on the hot days.

SMART! I agree, over lean will fry the air cooled in a heartbeat...
richen it up a bit.. :wink: and not with TAX DOLLARS :cry:

Sat Sep 18, 2004 4:25 pm

My Bentley came in yesterday, so I could do some reading. It was the timing. The shop timed it at 7.5^ ATDC instead of 7.5^BTDC. All temperatures are as follows:

On a cool day (not 3 digit heat)
FWY - 375-390 CHT, 210 Oil
Town - 325-350 CHT, 210 Oil

I also got about 100-150% more horsepower, thus running about like my '79 Westy from yore. Time to replace all the crappy seals left on there, too.

Later guys....

Sat Sep 18, 2004 4:48 pm

Dang! Pays to check on our favourite mechANhics aint it! 7 AFTER????

How the hell did it even run????? :P

Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:05 am

weinerwagen wrote: Dang! Pays to check on our favourite mechANhics aint it! 7 AFTER????

How the hell did it even run????? :P

Oddly enough, it ran fine. Great idle, everything seemed great. It took me a while to even FIND the timing mark. The only way I found it was by revving the engine so I could see it when it advanced. Even though the PO's shop rebuilt the engine and made it look pretty, they didn't even change the cap and rotor -- still the old one pre-meltdown.

I think the reason they timed it in reverse was the T-fitting they have for the oil pressure senders hits the trigger plug. Going the other way (ATDC) you have plenty of space. Hilarious.

MPG is up near 20 now.

Sun Oct 03, 2004 11:26 am

I just installed the new '72-79 engine bay seal. It fits and functions fine. The only difference was that it is about 6 inches too short, so I used a good section of my old seal.

Around town:
180F oil, 350 CHT

FWY
210F oil, 375-400 CHT (CHT seems to have crept up a bit).

I'll be changing the O2 sensor soon, so I'll let you know what happens with that.

Sun Oct 03, 2004 1:04 pm

:D In the "For What It Is Worth Department", my Series 60 12.7 liter Detroit Diesel runs at 200 on the flats, and the oil will get to 240 on a hard pull....

:roll: :oops:

Sun Oct 03, 2004 10:07 pm

hello I have a 2.0L type4 in my 69 type3 and temp around town is 230-240F on a 70-75degree day on hwy and got to 240-260F idling at stand still. I will try timing,I have F.I. off a 1980 type2 and get 23-25mpg city and 27-30 mpg hwy and to set the timing I have to disconnect the idle stabilizer to set it.I set it at 30 degrees at 3000 rpmI think.I have to get a gun with a dial indicator,and while revving it up to get power at about 3000-4000 rpms it will ping like nails in a coffee can at 230F oil temp on a hot day!!! someone told me the timing is to advanced. I have type4 heater boxes with heat blowing in the car and no thermostat hooked up,just the flap on the oil cooler side screwed down so always blowing on the cooler and have all the sheet metal on and got a rubber of the same 1980 tin formy tin to help seal the engine bay. I even have the plastic adapter for the front fan so I can hook up my air intake rubber boot.
PLEASE HELP!! :( :!:

Mon Oct 04, 2004 8:00 am

Quote: I even have the plastic adapter for the front fan so I can hook up my air intake rubber boot.

If this isn't hooked up, it won't get any better no matter what you do. Is it connected now?