TheSamba.com :: View topic - Ghia Suspension:Lower, Narrow, Adjust

Sat Dec 25, 2004 2:01 pm

The following explains how to lower a Karmann Ghia via adjusting spring plates, using lowered spindles or an adjustable beam.

1. How do I lower my Karmann Ghia ?

There are several methods that you can exercise if you wish to lower your Ghia. These depend upon several factors. The year of the Ghia, $$$ you wish to spend, what rim / tire option you wish to use. Before you begin to even think about lowering your Ghia you need to get a Bentley shop manual for your specific year, available in the samba classifieds, on Ebay, or here: http://www.bentleypublishers.com/product.htm?code=v160

Lowering the rear of your Karmann Ghia

This is a relatively low cost and straightforward procedure. You need to determine whether your car is equipped with a swing axle rear suspension or an "IRS" rear suspension. With your repair manual in hand turn to the section on rear suspension. You need to follow the steps that outline safe removal of the spring plates, removal of the torsion bars. And how torsion bar adjustments are made. Your Bentley manual includes all of this information. By turning the inner splines and outer splines in different combinations you can adjust the final ride height of the car. Because Karmann Ghias have independent rear suspension the wheels "butterfly" as the car gets lower. This is called camber, when you stand at the back of the car its the incline on the vertical plane of the wheel. Normal wheels: I----I , Lowered wheels /----\. If you are using stock size tires 155 or 165 X 15 inch, camber will not affect you too much, except you may find that your tires wear on the inside edge. However, if you are using 15x7 Fuchs with 195's you may find yourself with a problem. The steps for adjusting the torsion bars may have to be completed several times to get your Ghia to sit without rubbing the sidewall off of the tire.

There are 44 splines on the inner end and moving one spline changes the plate angle 8.18 degrees.
There are 40 splines on the outer end and moving one spline changes the plate angle 9.00 degrees.

Lowering the front of your Karmann Ghia

This is the part of lowering your Ghia that is somewhat more complicated, however, you do have multiple options and many suppliers to purchase parts from. These options include:
1. Pulling torsion leaves out of the front beam (very dangerous and not recommended, plus they make your Ghia ride and handle like an overloaded u-haul...why did I even mention this choice?)
2. Drop Spindles
3. Adjustable front beams, narrowed and/or stock width.
First off you need to decide how low you want your car to be. Down an inch, in the weeds, or somewhere between. You will also need to again think about camber and caster. Varying parts are required to adjust camber and caster and make your car ride properly. When you begin to shop around for components look at what the manufacturer recommends you use in conjunction with your part. The components used to lower the front of a Karmann Ghia can be used in different combinations depending on your desired final ride height. Here is a rough idea of what you will need to do for different heights:

Height: Tire Size: Required Parts:
Down 1-1.5 inch(s) --- Stock Tire--- Adjustable stock width beam

Down 2- 2.5 inch(s) --- Stock Tire--- Drop spindles and a narrowed beam, or Narrowed beam with adjusters.

Down 2.5 + inch(s) --- Stock Tire --- Drop spindles and a narrowed adjustable beam

Component Overview:

Beam: The beam is the component of your car that houses the torsion leaves (heart of the front suspension). By installing adjusters on your beam or buying a beam with adjusters on it, you can adjust the torsion leaves, which will control the final ride height of the car. Depending on where you place the adjusters, or the style of adjuster, you can achieve varying amounts of height. For an awesome breakdown of a front beam and how to install adjusters go here: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=64301

Drop Spindles: Drop spindles are another option for lowering your Ghia. Drop spindles are basically similar to a stock VW spindle, except the shaft portion that the brake/hub mounts too is positioned higher up, thus making the car sit lower. The problem with drop spindles is that the spindle shaft tends to be .5 of an inch longer then the stock VW unit. This means that your rims will sit out .5 of an inch more. Therefore, when you use spindles without a narrowed beam you can no longer use stock 165 tires because they will rub the fenders. Some owners choose to downsize to a 135 x15 tire, and others choose to use a narrowed beam. The narrowing of the beam compensates for the increase of the spindle. Beams are usually narrowed a minimum of 2 inches (which allows the use of drop spindles with stock sized tires), or narrower to allow the car to sit even lower or to use wider tires.

Picture: Lowered with narrowed adjustable beam and drop spindles https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/176601.jpg

These options are present because of the varying levels of lowering people wish to perform. The biggest problem with lowering the front of a Karmann Ghia is fitting the tire inside the fender without it rubbing on the fender lip, or inner fender. By choosing to only lower your car 1 – 1.5 of an inch you can avoid the hassle of narrowing your beam or using smaller tires. This small amount of lowering can be accomplished by simply installing adjusters on your beam. However if you must go lower https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/175639.jpg then you will need to investigate the other options such as a narrowed beam and drop spindles.

In terms of installing drop spindles or a beam you will once again need your Bentley manual. The manual covers spindle removal and beam removal. It does not cover narrowing a beam or installing adjusters. How you choose to attain these items is up to you. There are several vendors on The Samba that sell narrowed beams in varying widths. There are also some big suppliers like CB performance and CIP 1 that offer them as well.

What tires will fit when my car is lowered?
Unfortunately this is not a cut and dry question. There are too many variables that affect the fit of rims and tires. Swing Axle Ghia’s fit rims differently then IRS style Ghia’s, and because each car is hand made what works for you may not work for someone else. Do your research carefully, there is nothing worse then spending big dollars buying rims and tires that won’t work with your suspension plans. Learn about offset and backspacing, what it is and how much different rims have.

Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:53 am

Another user on the Samba, VWguy60, who owns the white ghia in the pictures above, sent me the following info on torsion bars. Thanks!!

Erik,
I was reading your article and came across this info when I was adjusting the height of my car. I am an engineer so I was able to approximate the change in angle with good accuracy, also the car came out uneven due to my first mistake (torsion bar pulled completely out) so this was the way I corrected it.

There are 44 splines on the inner end and moving one spline changes the plate angle 8.18 degrees.
There are 40 splines on the outer end and moving one spline changes the plate angle 9.00 degrees.

Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:31 am

What should should I expect a shop to charge me to change to a narrowed beam?

Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:24 pm

mkystybx wrote: What should should I expect a shop to charge me to change to a narrowed beam?

Are you talking about a complete new spindle to spindle beam? If so....

I would think hourly labour charges and an alignment fee. If you take it to a shop that is familiar with vintage VW's that hourly time will be less then if you take it down to the guy on the corner. I would guess you will be charged for somewhere around 4-5 hours.

Don't forget to buy narrowed tie rod ends.

Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:30 pm

Chupa-Thingy wrote: Does anyone know of any shops that sell narrowed spindle to spindle beams with dropped spindles? I'm in the Marines and don't really have the time or space to do a lot of work on the Ghia. If noone knows any shops could someone give me a detailed list of parts to get. I need to get the job done in a weekend so I need o get it right the first time. Measure 20 times cut once, right?

Thanks,
Russell Russell

I would call up CB performance

Fri Apr 14, 2006 4:13 pm

Franklins vw works

http://www.franklinsvwwerks.com

Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:03 pm

i had a adjustable beam installed by a regular mechanic shop and it took a full day, 8 hours.

i have heard a vw shop takes 4-5, so you do the math.

Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:12 am

Smart Car Tires come in some good sizes for lowered ghia's. They are made by Continental, have a decent tread pattern not like a snow tire! Sized:

145x65 - 15
175x55 - 15

http://www.1010tires.com/tire.asp?tirebrand=Continental&tiremodel=EcoContact+EP

Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:50 pm

Ghia lowering 101

8)

Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:17 pm

How To: Ball Joint Drop Spindle Install.

I decided it was time to get around to lowering my current Ghia. I had a warped front rotor – so the brakes were coming apart, and then Icy set me up with a pair of VW based drop spindles. He even drove them up to Canada for me – great guy. This is my all weather; spring, summer, and fall driver. I don’t really need it lowered, but I figured it would help level out the “high nosed” look.

So first off, I have done this on a few cars now. Feel free to comment on my techniques, feel free to disagree. I am posting what works and has worked for me. You may want to do things differently. You may have a better tool pile then me, or you may need to improvise. I am not going to cover how to jack your car up, how to take the wheels off. And I will assume you have some basic knowledge of tools and mechanical techniques – possibly add the use of a decent repair manual so you can learn about bearing adjustment, and determine the torque specs for various fasteners. I would also like to take this time to apologize for the cruddy looking state of my suspension components. I get the car sprayed with oil rust proofing – a magnet for dirt and dust. As long as the parts are in good repair I could care less how they look.

What you will need:

Tools:

Safety Glasses (Not Shown) – At least wear them when you are banging on the pickle fork!
Cheater Pipe – Spindle removal
Pickle Fork – Driving out taper joints
Sledge Hammer (Not Shown) – For banging on the pickle fork.
19mm box end wrench – Tie rod ends and ball joints
Large Flat Head Screwdriver – When do you not need this?
17mm socket – Brake caliper bolts
10 or 11mm socket – Brake Tin removal
Small Magnet Level – Alignment
Measuring Tape (Not Shown) – Alignment
Channel Lock Pliers – Hub cap removal
Hex Keys – Spindle Locknut removal

Chemicals:
Non-Lithium Lube (Slider Pin Grease) – Lubing ball joint and tie rod boots
PB Blaster - freeing things up
Brake Cleaner – Cleaning things up for the install.

Step 1 – Set-up
The car is jacked up securely on jack stands and the wheels are off.

Step 2 – Speedo Cable

Remove the small c clip that holds the speedometer cable in place.

Remove Hub Cap.

Step 3 – Brake Caliper

Remove the two 17mm bolts that hold the caliper to the spindle

Wiggle the calliper off the disc and store it up on the shelf under the gas tank – very convenient..

Step 4 – Rotor Removal

Using a 6mm hex key loosen the cinch bolt on the spindle nut. Leave the hex key in the nut and use it to unthread the nut from the spindle. (NOTE: Right side nuts are conventionally threaded – left to loosen right to tighten. Left side nuts are threaded opposite, right to loosen left to tighten. Don’t mix the nuts around – and don’t force them on). They are not likely very tight, as they control the bearing adjustment.

Spindle nut

Now that the nut is off. Grab the rotor and give it a tug outward. Then stop and push it back in. This should push the outer bearing out of the rotor for you to scoop up and put aside for cleaning. Now grab the rotor again and pull it off the spindle.

Rotor removed – watch out for spiders :) looking at rear seal and inner bearing. Carefully pry the seal out and remove the bearing, set them aside for cleaning.

Spindle exposed

Step 5 – Brake Tins and Speedo Cable

Remove the 3, 10mm bolts that hold the backing plates to the spindle. Remove the backing plate and set it aside.

Bare Spindle

My hand is on the speedometer cable. Grab it and give it a pull inward. It should slide right out of the spindle.

Step 6 – Tie Rod End

The tie rod end is a tapered shaft which fits into a complimenting tapered hole on the spindle. To remove it, the nut must come off, and a wedge must be driven between the spindle and the rod end itself. It is actually quite simple with the correct tools. Without the proper tools this job isn’t really possible.

Remove any split pins (if equipped), and remove the tie rod nut. Most are 19mm.

This step is optional. But I like to put some rubber friendly lube on the boots of the ball joints and tie rod ends. This helps keep the pickle fork from ripping them open. I use a product for brake slider pins – but any non petroleum lubricant will work.

Don your safety glasses, insert the pickle fork between the spindle and the tie rod end, and start hammering. I got this one out with two blows from the sledge – no rips to the rubber.

Removed tie rod end

Step 7 – Ball Joints.

Ball joints are the same concept as the tie rod end. A taper fit connection that must be driven apart. There is an upper and lower ball joint on these cars, however, you get a bargain in the fact that the upper joint doesn’t wedge into the spindle, but rather passes through the camber adjuster which sits in the spindle. You need to remove both 19mm retaining nuts, drive the bottom joint out of the spindle, and take the pressure off the top joint to remove it. (Note: Refer to the alignment section below – mark the location of the camber adjuster to the spindle).

With the tie rod end out you can turn the spindle for easy access to the ball joint nuts. This picture shows the camber adjuster – large wrench surface on the top side of the spindle. Here I am removing the upper ball joint retaining nut.

Remove the bottom nut, lube up the boot, put on your safety glasses, and insert the pickle fork in between the spindle and the lower ball joint. This will take a few whacks with the sledge to break free.

Step 8 – Spindle Removal

At this point all of the securing points have been removed. This next step can be done several ways. I find the pipe trick to be the quickest.

Slide the cheater pipe in as shown. Lift the - not shown - end of the pipe enough to allow the upper ball joint/camber adjuster to clear the spindle. Lift the spindle off the lower joint.

Loose and in my hand.

Step 9 – While Things Are Apart.

Address and issues you may have: Ball joint replacement, brake tin painting, brake pad replacement, clean all of the bearings and the inside bearing surfaces of your rotors (NOTE: keep the bearings separate left side and right side – put them back on the side they came from). Ensure you have the supplies to re-install the spindles on your car – new split pins or nylock nuts.

Step 10 – Installing the New Spindles

At this point you just need to reverse the steps from the removal process. Start by sitting the new drop spindle on the lower ball joint. Use the cheater pipe to lift the upper arm and slip the camber adjuster in place. Install the ball joint nuts and tighten up the nuts. As you tighten the nuts you will pull the tapered ball joint shaft into the spindle. Make sure these are tight. Due to the orientation of the nuts, it isn’t very feasible to use a torque wrench – so you will need to determine when they are tight enough. Sit the tie rod end in the hole, and only start the nut on the thread so you don’t lose it (see alignment section). Install the backing plate. Install the rotor with freshly greased bearings and the seal back in place. Install and adjust the spindle nut and make your bearing adjustments. Tighten down the 6mm cinch bolt. Install the speedo cable if it’s the left side, then the hub cap. Clean the rotor with brake cleaner and put the calliper back in place – install the two 17mm bolts.

Alignment:

As soon as you remove and replace suspension components you should really have your car aligned properly. However, there are some basic steps you can take to ensure that your test drives, and drive to the alignment shop don’t have you fighting to keep the car out of the ditch. The spindles I used were welded VW spindles: Meaning that a stock spindles face was cut and repositioned respective to the ball joint tabs and the tie rod end arm. Since these started life as a stock spindle there is no need to adjust the tie rod ends at this stage.

1. Try to position your jack stands so the beam is level – the small magnet level is handy here.
2. Using a marker or paint, mark a line from the camber adjuster down to the spindle. This marks your setting for the camber.
3. Remove the spindles using the steps above and sit the old next to the new.
4. Transfer the marking of the camber setting from your old spindle to the new one. The use of a measuring tape and vernier calliper will be handy.
5. Compare the distance from the centre of the upper ball joint hole to the centre of the tie rod hole. If this distance changes between your new spindles and the old you will have to make tie rod end adjustments.
6. If the difference is large – greater then 5mm loosen the tie rod end and adjust it correspondingly. When your ends are adjusted and the new dropped spindles are on the car, install the end in the spindle and tighten it down – install a new split pin if required. Remember this is not necessarily the final adjustment. Just more of a rough working to get you around the block and to the alignment shop.
7. Camber – Now that the spindle is back in place, turn the camber nut and line up the markings – the camber nut marking to your new transcribed markings. Ensure that the 19mm nut is tightened down.
This should provide some basics for alignment. As stated at the top a pro alignment should really be done. There are more things you can do – measure toe in from tire to tire, use a protractor to measure the camber, etc. The method I suggested is a quick and easy way to get you going. There is really no point wasting a few hours with your tape measure tweaking things if you are planning to get an alignment.

Double check your tie rod end nuts, ensure that the split pins are in.
Double check that your ball joint nuts are tight
Double check the brake calliper bolts are tight.
Make sure you adjusted the wheels bearings properly, and tightened down the 6mm cinch nut.

Tue May 15, 2007 9:13 am

I running an adjustable beam. The ride has been very harsh, but not jarring. I have always thought it was binding in the urethane bushings. I was wrong. It was bottomed out on the shocks. In the lowered stance, the static length of the shock is 12" ON MY GHIA. Your results may differ.
'72 Opel GT front shocks are two inches shorter than a "stock length" T1 shock. They worked for me but I did have to modify the lower mount. It seems the Opel stud is smaller in diameter than the VW stud.

Wed May 30, 2007 2:07 am

Very nice step by step lowering job for the Karmann Ghia. :D

Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:06 pm

70 140 wrote: Lowering the front of your Karmann Ghia

1. Pulling torsion leaves out of the front beam (very dangerous and not recommended, plus they make your Ghia ride and handle like an overloaded u-haul...why did I even mention this choice?)

Have fun
Erik

If i were to lower my front end by pulling the torsion spring out how would i do it. Pics would be nice if possible.
Thanks Corey

Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:20 pm

dont do it i did it and it rides horrible

Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:37 am

would a 195/50/15 tire rub thefront fender of a kg?i have mine lowered via avis adjusters

Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:16 pm

kg'66 wrote: would a 195/50/15 tire rub thefront fender of a kg?i have mine lowered via avis adjusters

Hello KG'66:

The way I saw your KG at the "Tambayan" (hangout), that size of tires will rub the front fender of your KG.

Go for a 145x15 or 135x15 for that old school appeal!

My KG is equipped with 135x15 before when I it was still sporting the eight-poske EMPI style. And it look good!

Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:34 am

DONGKG wrote: kg'66 wrote: would a 195/50/15 tire rub thefront fender of a kg?

that size of tires will rub the front fender of your KG.

Will it rub on the outer lip? Where exactly? I was thinking of using that size on the front.

Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:12 pm

Lee. wrote: DONGKG wrote: kg'66 wrote: would a 195/50/15 tire rub thefront fender of a kg?

that size of tires will rub the front fender of your KG.

Lee.

Will it rub on the outer lip? Where exactly? I was thinking of using that size on the front.

Based on my experience, the 195/50/15 size tire will rub the inner lip of the fender. The part of the fender that is bent inward. I used the size of tire before and it was really a pain in the neck everytime I would turn!

Hence, I replaced it with a 135x15. But, I think the 195/50/15 size tire can still ne used with proper modification ~~~~ say ~~~~ narrowed front beam.

Thanks,

DONGKG

Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:34 am

I just finished lowering the front of my 68.

1) Drop spindles

2) Narrowed & adjustable front beams. The adjustable beams allowed returning the geometry to the trailing arms, giving the proper caster. The narrower beams allowed placing 195/50-15 in the front.

3) Replaced the 68 swing arm with 66 swing arms. The 1966 swing arms are 1 inch shorter than the 68 allowing 195/50-15 in the rear. I had to machine 15 mm from the outside hub of the rear brake and 1 mm from the inside to allow proper fit.

4) Overall the car sets lower and equal height front to rear. It handles alot better and looks cool.

Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:35 am

oils65mustang wrote: I just finished lowering the front of my 68.

1) Drop spindles

2) Narrowed & adjustable front beams. The adjustable beams allowed returning the geometry to the trailing arms, giving the proper caster. The narrower beams allowed placing 195/50-15 in the front.

3) Replaced the 68 swing arm with 66 swing arms. The 1966 swing arms are 1 inch shorter than the 68 allowing 195/50-15 in the rear. I had to machine 15 mm from the outside hub of the rear brake and 1 mm from the inside to allow proper fit.

4) Overall the car sets lower and equal height front to rear. It handles alot better and looks cool.

Oils65mustang, please place pictures of your car.

Thanks