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Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:43 pm

I haven't owned a VW in several years but last year I used my sister's Westy and have been bitten by the bug. I would like to get one but I am at an impass on which ones to be focusing on. I know that the watercooled ones have more power but I am definately worried about the heads and overheating. With the aircooled ones I am worried about it passing SMOG since I am in California. I think that I may be leaning toward the aircooled ones since they may be simpler, have less to fail and I really don't need to much heat. Since this purchase is going to be for 20 year old vehicle with over 100K miles I feel the simpler the better.

So my question is what are the pros and cons that you can offer for me to make a good choice? Do I rule out aircooled all together? What problems will I run into with the Fuel Injection systems? Are there aftermarket fuel injection systems that are CARB legal?

Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:43 pm

Is it mostly for camping, are you going to to your own work, and do you have a big budget or a little one? They all have fuel injection the aircooled being the simplist. the 2.0 in the aircooled Vanagon is the same as in the late baywindow buses, the bays in CA seem to be able to pass emmisions fine. I don't think you have to worry about SMOG with one or the other.`

Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:19 pm

Actually I think all vehicles from 1976 up need to get smog tested in CA forever. Not the end of the world though, for a properly running bus.

Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:41 pm

I will probably use it most for camping but here in the west that means a nice big road trip. I do not see it as a daily driver but I do see myself on week long 1000 mile road trips over mountains and through the desert. I will probably do most of my own work but I will be limited on dropping the engine since I don't have a garage it can rest in while it is done. I would like to keep the budget small but I am always willing to spend on quality parts. I do know that what I want will need to be smoged I just wonder how difficult it is to get them to pass and what the major failures are of the emmissions systems. Are cats expensive for this vehicle? Do they run airpumps to the exhaust? Is the fuel injection system easy to work with? Where is a good place on the Web to look at parts cost? As up can tell I am a little spooked wth older vehicles and the emissions. Most of my old vehicles are motorcycles and do not require emissions testing. Any opinion is welcomed.

Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:56 pm

I live in Utah and have a aircooled westy vanagon. With the aircooled you will travel a little slower but you are on vacation so who cares. They are easy to work on and with The Samba as a great place for help you can fix about anything. Plus parts are cheaper. My 85 passanger is just not as much fun to work on but power is great and the parts cost more. They are all great, just get a good set of manuals and have fun. It may become your daily driver once you start to drive your westy. Nothing like driving a westy.

Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:19 pm

I really don't know much about the water cooled ones, but the type 4 air cooleds with FI is pretty nice and are easy to work on with just a Bentley and a few handy tools. If you go for a 78 or 79, the valves have hydraulic lifters although many of the 72-77s have been retrofitted with them.

A couple of webistes to look at:

http://www.john-perry.com/vw/ for a good look at the various interiors

Bus parts:

http://www.gowesty.com/
http://www.busdepot.com/index.jsp
http://www.bus-boys.com/home.htm

Type 4 information:

http://www.tunacan.net/t4/tour/heads.shtml#intro

For the water cooled ones, I think the 87+ ones are less likely to present water leaks in the heads. Read what you want in this section:

http://www.gowesty.com/thelibrary.html

Whatever model you choose, they are the best camping vehicle out there period.

http://thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=97843

http://thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=97849

http://thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=97852

Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:29 am

Thanks for the advice and links. I am going to buy a very basic manual like the Chiltons just to get my self better educated on these vehicles. All the comments have been very helpful and I am open for more if anyone has any.

Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:42 pm

Having owned both a bay-window and a vanagon I can emphatically state:

The air-cooled rigs were easy to work on, ran fine, gave good service and were generally satisfactory.

The wasserboxer is more powerful, easier to service (body-wise for vanagons in general) quieter and all-around more comfortable.

They both have quirks and foibles. The wasserboxer is much easier to pass emissions than the air-cooled. The wasserboxer has water in it to deal with. Wasserboxers tend to last longer (150k plus miles as opposed to maybe 150k miles). There are a million parts available for the air-cooled (but the wasserboxer is well represented too).

The post '85 gearbox is stronger in the vanagon (3-4 shift dog issue) and all the air-cooled gearboxes are rock-crushers.

Automatics are to be avoided in all VW vans of any vintage unless you have a physical limitation.

Mike!

Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:54 pm

mjamgb,

Thanks for you reply. From what you have said is an Aircooled Vanagon the ideal vehicle for simplicity and access?

What sort of problems have you ran into smogging an aircooled?

Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:55 pm

No, I am not convinced the air-cooled units are best for simplicity and ease of maintenence but I have "only" lived with my wasserboxer for 5 years so it may throw me for a loop yet. You have long tubes for hot air with the air-cooled but you have long coolant hoses in the wasserboxer.

The air-cooled emissions issue is the fact it is air-cooled. The engine has physical limitations that even Porsche gave up on. The emissions "fixes" were nearly all band-aids (even to a certain extent FI which offered the best opportunity to solve them) and just could not meet increasingly stingent regulations... hence the wasserboxer.

Luckily for me, I have never had to deal with emissions. I have heard plenty of anecdotal stories about the pain in the a** the (fill in the blank) van had in passing. Far fewer for the wasserboxer.

Fact is, they gave up on the air cooled and moved on so the emissions never matured beyond the band-aid stage for the air-cooled units.

Now, if you buy an old "exempt" van you can tune it however you want but that rules out all vanagons (and all but the earliest bay-windows in most states, too).

My 2 cents worth. Buy what you are comfortable with (or your mechanic likes). FI is a very good thing (especially the Bosch stuff). Make ceratin maintenence is performed.

Mike!

Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:55 pm

My '81 Westy 2.0l luftboxer failed smog in PA, the tube to the mass air flow sensor was leaking and it would run alternately too rich then too lean. I found a replacement (NLA from dealer or VW sites) in a junkyard in Arkansas. This worked only because I have enough time, money and patience

Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:56 pm

I have an 81, bought it because it was simple and I have played with enough cars to know that anything this old has to be redone. 10 years is the time when most cars start falling apart. it is very rare for anyone to have recommended maintainance done for at least the first 2 years if at all. I've turned it into a hobby, I have redone most of the mechanics the engine has 25,000 miles on it so it stayed in the Van, but if I had to pull it I could pretty easy, Amskeptic the traveling aircooled mechanic (see bay window forum) has helped me and I have well over $5000.00 invested. I've had it since May and the first big trip across the country is coming up It's taken me this long to get everything right, and I'm not that anal about stuff. I've done all the work except for Amskeptic and machine shop stuff. Still needs tires and then we start on interior and body. You being in CA you have your pick of good Westys of every year. You could find a badly maintained watercooled for a deal that costs you more to get smogged than a lower priced well maintained aircooled that might not be as hard. It all depends on your budget, but no matter what you choose go over it very well, even the newest Vanagon Westy is 14yrs old and I would have to take a loan out for one of them, hell if I have to that, I'd just get a Eurovan :lol:

Thu Jan 20, 2005 5:56 pm

Mightyart,

Thanks for your input and the reference to Amskeptic. I have gone and looked over some of his posts and it looks like what he has to say will be a very good learning experience with the fuel injected aircooled engines and other items. I know it will help with my education on these matters. At this time I am leaning towards finding an Aircooled Vanagon Westy but definately will not pass up a good deal on any others.
Thanks all and feel free to offer any advice on this matter. This has been a very pleasant experience on this forum.

Motomatt

Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:08 am

I have to agree with just about everything being said here. I have 5 running Vanagons: 1 80 Westy, 1 82 diesel, and the rest 2.1 waterboxers. I like them all but they are somewhat different. About the only smog problem with the air cooled is if some clown has removed stock parts like the EGR. EGR filters are very hard to find and expensive, but still should be able to find one used. Air cooled Vanagons actually put out pretty good heat if all the details are right.
And of course, for colder climates, there are gas heaters as options.
About the only thing wrong with the automatic is performance. If you need an automatic, consider a 2.1.
The diesel is another alternative. For someone with the patience to go slow and let others pass on hills, this might be your answer. In proper repair it should get 26-30 mpg. this is a 55 or 60 mph vehicle and that is not into a bad headwind. 83's have 5 speeds, which really help.
both my early cars have a certain lightness to them that makes them seem a little more like an old bus or even an old Porsche. Kind a light steering, quirky feel. Not scarey like a split or bay window in a crosswind, but just a little bit more fun to drive.
I, too, would like a power window on the passenger side. I got spoiled by driving bays for so long, you could just reach over and roll the window down! In the Vanagon, I can't reach it! But my 82 has a sunroof- I use it every sunny day in the summer!
I suggest you drive a few and look at more. If you're not afraid to fix stuff, just buy the car that appeals to you. I could never stand a blue car, no matter how perfect it was. Well, maybe a Dove blue splitty, but not a blue Vanagon!
Seriously! Get the car that you love. Don't worry, any can be made to work fine. (Of course, you're not going to fall in love with a rust bucket or one with a lot of body damage.)
But any will be a lot cheaper to own over the long term than a new mini van or SUV.
Al
69 doublecab

Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:32 pm

tacking on to what was said above... diesel is the pinnacle of simplicity.

i've had aircooled bay's and watercooled vanagons, both gas and diesel. diesel is so easy and so efficient. the 1.6 is slow but not that bad if your motor is in decent shape. parts are cheap and easy to find. i recently put in a 1.9td eco diesel (i'm not sure if california allows this engine) and now i have simplicity, efficiency, and POWER!

these motors have no computer chips, complicated sensors or any of that.

so i give my enthusiastic vote to the vanagon diesel