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Steve M.
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Joined: July 30, 2013
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Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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 Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:40 am Post subject: No Start - Pump Relay Term 87 voltage always On [SOLVED] |
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[Update: Ignition Coil went bad. Swapped it with the used spare and fired right up.]
Okay drove it and parked for an appointment.
Got back in and no start. Engine spins and spark present at plug #3.
Doing the Digifant manual diagnosis checking for voltage at the Fuel Pump Relay term. #87 it says voltage should only be present for 5 seconds after ignition key turned on.
Mine has voltage there whether the key is off or on. It's there all the time.
Thinking bad ECU to skip the rest of the testing and call AAA tow.
I don't have time to jump into testing it as I need to get back to work.
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Last edited by Steve M. on Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Silverghost500
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Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:58 am Post subject: Re: Got a "No Start", Pump Relay Term 87 voltage always On? |
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Can you hear the fuel pump running when trying to start?
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djkeev
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Steve M.
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Joined: July 30, 2013
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Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:17 am Post subject: Re: Got a "No Start", Pump Relay Term 87 voltage always On? |
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| Silverghost500 wrote: |
| Can you hear the fuel pump running when trying to start? |
Too much dammed noise here to hear it!
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Steve M.
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Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:18 am Post subject: Re: Got a "No Start", Pump Relay Term 87 voltage always On? |
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| djkeev wrote: |
Terminal 30 is Red, unfused always hot from the alternator.
If 87 always is always hot, your relay is stuck.
It could be melted closed or it could be being told to close via a malfuntion at the coil black wires or the ground through the ECU.
Easy trick, unless you are a 89"ish" unmodified model...... switch relays with the EFI.
Dave |
Not a stuck relay, swapped it with my spares. 3 different relays do not all have same problem!
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djkeev
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djkeev
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Steve M.
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Joined: July 30, 2013
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Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: Got a "No Start", Pump Relay Term 87 voltage always On? |
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| djkeev wrote: |
If the idle control plug at the P/S shorted to ground, the harness melts internally.
At that point all sorts of unwanted exciting things take place! |
I did the "Fuse Mod" to that wiring so that's all good.
I had to leave down in Miami. I rented a car to get back to work today. Might be able to get back down to it tomorrow.
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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: Got a "No Start", Pump Relay Term 87 voltage always On? |
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Constant 12 volts measured at fuel pump relay 87 connection should mean that the fuel pump runs all the time. Does it?
When time permits....
remove fuel pump relay, measure for 12 volts at 87 wire at fuel pump relay socket. It would be highly unlikely to see 12 at FP relay socket 87 but just to rule it out....
Neil.
| Steve M. wrote: |
....
Doing the Digifant manual diagnosis checking for voltage at the Fuel Pump Relay term. #87 it says voltage should only be present for 5 seconds after ignition key turned on.
Mine has voltage there whether the key is off or on. It's there all the time.
... |
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Steve M.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: Got a "No Start", Pump Relay Term 87 voltage always On? |
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| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
| Constant 12 volts measured at fuel pump relay 87 connection should mean that the fuel pump runs all the time. Does it? |
Between the jets from MIA International taking off close overhead and the road traffic plus that annoying guy with the weed whacker on the other side of the road I couldn't hear anything!
| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
| remove fuel pump relay, measure for 12 volts at 87 wire at fuel pump relay socket. It would be highly unlikely to see 12 at FP relay socket 87 but just to rule it out.... |
Too rushed to think about that one. Going back tomorrow with more time to work the problem. So I'll definitely do this.
Thanks
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RawUmber
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: Got a "No Start", Pump Relay Term 87 voltage always On? |
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| Steve M. wrote: |
| Might be able to get back down to it tomorrow. |
Bring a spare ECU. You've proven your relay is good. If the only problem was that the fuel pump was stuck on, the vehicle should have started up. |
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djkeev
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Steve M.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: Got a "No Start", Pump Relay Term 87 voltage always On? |
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| djkeev wrote: |
| RawUmber wrote: |
| Steve M. wrote: |
| Might be able to get back down to it tomorrow. |
Bring a spare ECU. You've proven your relay is good. If the only problem was that the fuel pump was stuck on, the vehicle should have started up. |
Unless an injector ir two are leaking down after shut off, but if the pump is always on, there is constant leakage resulting in flooding.
I'd bring a set of plugs too. |
I think leaking injectors would have shown themselves gradually and not a sudden death stoppage.
I've got a spare ECU to bring and I think the plugs are still good, but I'll bring a set of those as well.
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Steve M.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: Got a "No Start", Pump Relay Term 87 voltage always On? |
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| RawUmber wrote: |
| Steve M. wrote: |
| Might be able to get back down to it tomorrow. |
Bring a spare ECU. You've proven your relay is good. If the only problem was that the fuel pump was stuck on, the vehicle should have started up. |
Yeah, I can't see where the voltage is coming from and won't have schematic until tomorrow.
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Steve M.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: Got a "No Start", Pump Relay Term 87 voltage always On? |
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So "Wise Ones", that Blk wire coming off Terminal 15 of the Ignition Coil is not supposed to be going to Ground is it?
My Bently shows it going to the Power Relay #86 & then to the Fuel Relay #86.
So swapped relays out yesterday and made no difference so the mind wanders!
I found this thinking my anti-theft switch on the green wire to the tach was grounding out and pulled the switch because it at least sounds like it does when I forget to turn the switch off!
However, I was getting spark to the plugs and if the coil was grounded I do not think I should be getting spark.
Tracing it down to the single black wire going to term. 15 of the coil would have it going to ground through it's connection at T1g in the Distribution Box on the firewall. That connects to fuse S51 and the heating element for the crankcase vent tube. So that is that Ground.
I am getting Ground through the other Terminals on the ignition coil #1 & #4. Assuming this is on the other end of the ignition coil internal wiring there should be ground, but that doesn't make sense as the green wire to the Tach is coming off that term#1. And when I ground that it doesn't start.?
Changing the coil out or doing a resistance check first.
What is the resistance supposed to be on this coil? I'm getting 000.7 to .9.
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Steve M.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: Got a "No Start", Pump Relay Term 87 voltage always On? |
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[quote="Vanagon
remove fuel pump relay, measure for 12 volts at 87 wire at fuel pump relay socket. It would be highly unlikely to see 12 at FP relay socket 87 but just to rule it out....
[/quote]
Getting back to this voltage I have removed the Fuel Pump Relay and measuring from Relay term. #30 to #87 it is showing battery voltage 12.96v.
That Fuel pump is not running as I had a quiet moment to hear it.
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djkeev
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Steve M.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: Got a "No Start", Pump Relay Term 87 voltage always On? |
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| djkeev wrote: |
If you pull the relay out, only female terminal 30 should have +12v with the key off.
87 should be dead.
With the key on terminal 86 should come alive. |
Funny you should say that...
With the key off I have 12.96 to 87 & 86.
With the key "ON" I have 12.96v to 87, but 0v to 86.
It should be voltage coming from the ign. Coil term.15. To #86.
Edit: this is with original ECU and the spare ECU. Same results.
That voltage to #87 is coming from term. #14 of the ECU.
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Steve M.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Got a "No Start", Pump Relay Term 87 voltage always On? |
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Success, swapped out the Ignition Coil. Started right up.
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Steve M.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: Solved a "No Start", Pump Relay Term 87 voltage always On? |
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Funny things is....
All those voltage measurements I was getting at the Fuel Pump Relay...they are still the same! Go figure.
This means at the least I have to return the BMW Series 5 ... that heads up display is fantastic!
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