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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7537
Location: Santa Cruz
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 Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:10 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Well here's my yesterday;
New adventure for me to be sure.
Taking early single-relief oil passages over to the later dual-relief size.
Having never seen this one before, we'll have a go at writing it up.
This is all thanks to coaching by Mr. Alstrup.
I wouldn't a had the inclination, (nor the balls  ), to do this without his help.
Makes good sense when you think about it.
VW increased the oiling on these for a reason.
Putting a doghouse cooler and all on, best add the additional oiling as well.
Long metric drill bits came in: 9, 10 and 11mm.
Because the last case i looked at was Brazilian (and it's been buttoned up),
I grabbed this fallen angel from my stash.
Since it's some kind of German AS21 dual relief little sweet beauty,
It should make a good example of our goal here.
Pulling the plugs gave me a best insight into galley sizes,
Without any plug drilling to distract.
Once i had a handle on exactly what we're going for i started in.
Pretty cool that you can clamp straight to the table with no jigging or angles involved. 
Big long main galley gets taken over to 11mm:
Takes a number of steps because of the length.
This drill press doesn't have enough stroke on the z axis,
So I'd drill as far as i could,
Then stop and crank the table up,
Make sure nothing was binding and the bit was free in the hole,
Then power back up and go some more.
Mother VW did this one from both ends.
The bit won't go straight thru in one go;
You can see they came at it from the front, and the back, meeting in the middle.
At least on the cases i have here to look at..
Not the best pic, hard to get.
Because there's no relief valve at the flywheel end of a single relief case,
(and it would be a PITA to try and clamp level to the table at the nose of the case  )
There's no need to drill much past the center main.
With only the #1 main and cam journal to feed with an already 10mm-ish galley, it's already adequate.
All of the galleys from the pump up to the cooler get taken to 9mm.
Galley from cooler down to big main is 11mm on a factory dual relief,
but Torben says it gets a bit thin, so we just went to 10.
As long as the galley exiting the cooler is bigger than the one feeding it, you're OK.
Last step for all of this was to take and make sure the depth was perfect on everything and that NO burrs were left blocking flow or, God forbid, free to break away and score a journal.
This is a busy place here where three galleys intersect.
Took the case onto the bench and re-chased all of my passes very lightly with a hand drill.
Having it on the bench allows you to turn it and shine the flashlight -just- so,
to see in there and check it all out.
.
Took pretty much all day, what with excavating another case from my junk pile.
But I'm thinking it just might help make a difference in the long run.
A big thanks to our Mr. Torben Alstrup for showing me the way via PM.
Hopefully this diatribe helps someone out one day.
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7537
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:38 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Heading into some assembly here next week!
Fan and cutter tools on their way from Texas over the weekend.
Jeff is giving the case a good final clean as well.
We found some blasting grit hiding..
Our hero head guy is way up in the mountains,
So, it's best if we can figure out the fly-cut beforehand.
If AA 500s with a bit of unshrouding make them about 62ccs or so,
And our target is 56ccs,
How much to fly-cut the heads?
I can give him a number and he will chop accordingly.
It's not his place to be assembling and measuring ccs and all that.
Though he can fly-cut the bottom fin if it fouls the cylinder..
Any idea if that will be needed?
So how much chopchop?
Anybody know?
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7537
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:08 pm Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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For the record...
Per Brian_e, .050 - .055" should do the trick.
Hopefully we have those heads in-hand next week and can do some gluing!
Still always surprising how quick the actual assembly goes once everything is sussed out.
BITD, before everything needed fitting and most motors were stock, assembly was a big part of the build!
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7537
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2023 8:22 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Mail Call!
A welded/balanced fan and a Berg lifter boss cutter.
Plus a tie-dye to match Jeff’s hippy bus! 
Big thanks to Phil.
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Albertoprop17
Samba Member
Joined: March 15, 2016
Posts: 196
Location: Valencia (Spain)
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2023 1:31 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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| Clatter wrote: |
Well here's my yesterday;
New adventure for me to be sure.
Taking early single-relief oil passages over to the later dual-relief size.
Having never seen this one before, we'll have a go at writing it up.
This is all thanks to coaching by Mr. Alstrup.
I wouldn't a had the inclination, (nor the balls ), to do this without his help.
Makes good sense when you think about it.
VW increased the oiling on these for a reason.
Putting a doghouse cooler and all on, best add the additional oiling as well.
Long metric drill bits came in: 9, 10 and 11mm.
Because the last case i looked at was Brazilian (and it's been buttoned up),
I grabbed this fallen angel from my stash.
Since it's some kind of German AS21 dual relief little sweet beauty,
It should make a good example of our goal here.
Pulling the plugs gave me a best insight into galley sizes,
Without any plug drilling to distract.
Once i had a handle on exactly what we're going for i started in.
Pretty cool that you can clamp straight to the table with no jigging or angles involved.
Big long main galley gets taken over to 11mm:
Takes a number of steps because of the length.
This drill press doesn't have enough stroke on the z axis,
So I'd drill as far as i could,
Then stop and crank the table up,
Make sure nothing was binding and the bit was free in the hole,
Then power back up and go some more.
Mother VW did this one from both ends.
The bit won't go straight thru in one go;
You can see they came at it from the front, and the back, meeting in the middle.
At least on the cases i have here to look at..
Not the best pic, hard to get.
Because there's no relief valve at the flywheel end of a single relief case,
(and it would be a PITA to try and clamp level to the table at the nose of the case )
There's no need to drill much past the center main.
With only the #1 main and cam journal to feed with an already 10mm-ish galley, it's already adequate.
All of the galleys from the pump up to the cooler get taken to 9mm.
Galley from cooler down to big main is 11mm on a factory dual relief,
but Torben says it gets a bit thin, so we just went to 10.
As long as the galley exiting the cooler is bigger than the one feeding it, you're OK.
Last step for all of this was to take and make sure the depth was perfect on everything and that NO burrs were left blocking flow or, God forbid, free to break away and score a journal.
This is a busy place here where three galleys intersect.
Took the case onto the bench and re-chased all of my passes very lightly with a hand drill.
Having it on the bench allows you to turn it and shine the flashlight -just- so,
to see in there and check it all out.
.
Took pretty much all day, what with excavating another case from my junk pile.
But I'm thinking it just might help make a difference in the long run.
A big thanks to our Mr. Torben Alstrup for showing me the way via PM.
Hopefully this diatribe helps someone out one day. |
I've done the same on my actual build, but I used just a power hand drill and patience. Magnesium is soft but when it packs it locks solid the drill, so it has its trick. I've drilled the main gallery all the way to 11mm, just to be safe.
You are doing a great job!
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txoval
Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2004
Posts: 3552
Location: The Woodlands, TX
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2023 6:45 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Glad the fan and tool arrived…been busy with ACL surgery
Hope the build is coming along |
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7537
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:44 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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| txoval wrote: |
Glad the fan and tool arrived…been busy with ACL surgery
Hope the build is coming along |
We got thrown into the same boat..!
After two days of snowboarding in Utah my wife went sledding with the kids.
Tibial Plateau Fracture in a couple of places.
"Luckily" her shin bone broke apart instead of her ACL popping.
Rough way to go my man, hope you heal up soon.
Have a stock type 4 motor to sell off.
Needed to break in the cam/lifters,
So got it on the run stand and set it up with Jeff's carbs.
Check out his cool mesh filter screes with vintage matte finish.
They gave us a bit of shit like carbs will.
Wanted to keep the factory Solex needle valves, but one of them failed.
Drained that little fuel tank all over the ground overnight...
Far as i can tell it didn't go inside and dilute $50 worth of Brad Penn break-in oil. 
Once the Radke needle/seats went in it quit dribbling.
Also took a half-dozen on/offs of the lids before we had the float heights just right.
Had a weird whistle on one side but Jeff caught that the manifold was leaking.
MUCH easier doing these on the run stand.
Stoked that they should fire right off for Jeff's cam break in.
Anybody want to buy a blueprinted/balanced stock 2-liter bus motor?
Come hear it run!
Got the heads back from my man Jim.
Better guides installed at -55F, plunge cut .050, open up, 3-angle valve job.
He didn't like how the intake valves sat 'high' in their seats, -like the valve was too big-,
So, he took a Neway cutter and opened up the intake seat to a bit larger size.
Super stoked on this, because 35 x 32 valves are a bit small on the intake.
We'll get some details of valves and job once we get there.
For now, we're still making chips..
First by matching the manifolds.
Hard to find a paper gasket small enough!
Really tempting to continue along with making these intake ports even and round,
But seems like they're already too big!
What you guys think?
Keep going a little bit more? 
Forgot to get a 'before' pic, but the manifold was mis-aligned pretty good towards the outside.
Needed moved over and opened up to match.
We snuck up on the size but stopped -just- small of the intake port.
Hard to see in the pic.
What's also hard, is that a finger won't fit in there to feel.
Damn port is too small!
Manifolds had a big rough parting line/casting flash knocked down on each side.
Also cruised thru with the burr to give it an evenly rough texture throughout.
We were going to do the Alstrup divider wall lowering mod,
Where the spec is to drop the divider 60mm from the carb flange.
Ours came up at that number without any mods?
Think it's worth it here to open the plenums up bigger, lower the wall and all?
Small motor, relatively low revs..
Jeff finished up lifter bores. Thanks again to Phil.
That completes case mods.
Mom can't stop us from using the dishwasher when she's laid up..!
Lifter bosses ready to rock.
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Seasurfnbird
Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2020
Posts: 28
Location: Pescadero, CA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:15 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Here are some photos from the lifter bosses being cut.
We aimed for 0.045 with the minimum being 0.040 and a maximum being 0.080.
Thanks for lending us the specialty too Phil!
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Brian_e
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 3284
Location: Rapid City, SD
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:26 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Did your guy move the seat surface out to the edge of the intake valve? Lap one quick and see.
I hang mine way out to the edge. This makes the curtain area "seem" larger diameter, and they always pick up some flow. I also cut the seat width at .040", and then I just kiss it with a 45deg stone.
I have found the narrow seat width set out at the edge of the valve, along with a wide 75deg 4th angle are what really help on those heads.
I have also found the empi kadron manifolds will also be the bottle neck of the hole system. The heads will flow around 130+cfm with the correct valve job, but as soon as you bolt up a manifold, they will drop to 120. Without welding the manifolds, the most you will get out of them is about 128cfm @ .500"  The head flanges on those manifolds are also WAY off. Make sure you check both top and bottom edges of the manifold when its bolted up. I just did a set that were about 1/8" low on the port holes. Same size holes, but way off in the manifold casting.
As it looks from here, I am betting the heads and manifolds will both be pulling a similar CFM. I would imagine you have no desire to start welding kadron manifolds, and I don't blame you. They really need to be fully built up with weld on the outsides, and then the upper plenum cut off, everything ported, and then welded back together. WAY to much work for this project.
Keep up the good work. It will be a great little engine.
Brian
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AlteWagen
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Posts: 8501
Location: PNW
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7537
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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More stuff going on today.
A certain dyno owner in Denmark gave me a tip. 
A combo similar to ours might enjoy a flange opened to 42mm continuing down into the plenum.
Putting a gasket in place to match shows it fits well.
Also note misalignment.
Here's a look at our valve job.
Not Type E work I'm sure,
But WAY better than it came from AA.
Our guy likes to leave meat for future valve job regrinds,
So the valve seating area isn't clear to the margin.
Note how he added a bevel inside the seating surface to move it out wider on the valve.
Said those AA seats are super hard and took some work.
See also back-cut intake valve.
I'm really happy with this.
Scribed a line at the cylinder ID.
Have to measure and mock up to see if we have the ccs to spare,
But think i should un-shroud to the cylinder wall?
Now,
Before we get too carried away with this,
Have to remember what we're building for here.
Note flowers...
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Janne71
Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2015
Posts: 127
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Hi
Open up the plenum/divider more Bigger is better
I’ll get JB weld because il get rough
And buy velocity stacks from mr Alstrup its made a huge difference
| Clatter wrote: |
| txoval wrote: |
Glad the fan and tool arrived…been busy with ACL surgery
Hope the build is coming along |
We got thrown into the same boat..!
After two days of snowboarding in Utah my wife went sledding with the kids.
Tibial Plateau Fracture in a couple of places.
"Luckily" her shin bone broke apart instead of her ACL popping.
Rough way to go my man, hope you heal up soon.
Have a stock type 4 motor to sell off.
Needed to break in the cam/lifters,
So got it on the run stand and set it up with Jeff's carbs.
Check out his cool mesh filter screes with vintage matte finish.
They gave us a bit of shit like carbs will.
Wanted to keep the factory Solex needle valves, but one of them failed.
Drained that little fuel tank all over the ground overnight...
Far as i can tell it didn't go inside and dilute $50 worth of Brad Penn break-in oil.
Once the Radke needle/seats went in it quit dribbling.
Also took a half-dozen on/offs of the lids before we had the float heights just right.
Had a weird whistle on one side but Jeff caught that the manifold was leaking.
MUCH easier doing these on the run stand.
Stoked that they should fire right off for Jeff's cam break in.
Anybody want to buy a blueprinted/balanced stock 2-liter bus motor?
Come hear it run!
Got the heads back from my man Jim.
Better guides installed at -55F, plunge cut .050, open up, 3-angle valve job.
He didn't like how the intake valves sat 'high' in their seats, -like the valve was too big-,
So, he took a Neway cutter and opened up the intake seat to a bit larger size.
Super stoked on this, because 35 x 32 valves are a bit small on the intake.
We'll get some details of valves and job once we get there.
For now, we're still making chips..
First by matching the manifolds.
Hard to find a paper gasket small enough!
Really tempting to continue along with making these intake ports even and round,
But seems like they're already too big!
What you guys think?
Keep going a little bit more?
Forgot to get a 'before' pic, but the manifold was mis-aligned pretty good towards the outside.
Needed moved over and opened up to match.
We snuck up on the size but stopped -just- small of the intake port.
Hard to see in the pic.
What's also hard, is that a finger won't fit in there to feel.
Damn port is too small!
Manifolds had a big rough parting line/casting flash knocked down on each side.
Also cruised thru with the burr to give it an evenly rough texture throughout.
We were going to do the Alstrup divider wall lowering mod,
Where the spec is to drop the divider 60mm from the carb flange.
Ours came up at that number without any mods?
Think it's worth it here to open the plenums up bigger, lower the wall and all?
Small motor, relatively low revs..
Jeff finished up lifter bores. Thanks again to Phil.
That completes case mods.
Mom can't stop us from using the dishwasher when she's laid up..!
Lifter bosses ready to rock.
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Last edited by Janne71 on Mon Feb 20, 2023 3:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7537
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 3:11 pm Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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| AlteWagen wrote: |
| Those pretty air cleaner screens loose 7-10hp when used, combined with the crappy manifolds really hurts power on a low cc engine. |
Have a similar build with a Web 163 and 9:1.
Plan to have it on a dyno soon...!
Will be trying ported and un-ported manifolds,
1.25 rockers on the intakes only,
Velocity stacks.
Etc.
Now we'll add the mesh filter grilles.
Where did you get your 7-10HP figure?
What was the combo otherwise?
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7212
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Its not my dyno. I just contrute in abusing it 
Now that you have the Crane ignition, pay attention to just how little advance it will optimize at. I would not be surprised if it peaked at 29-30 degrees @ WOT
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7537
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:04 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Another day in the shop..
After Jeff spent most of the morning cleaning the outside of his generator which was dropped and broken yesterday and then lead to a long frustrating fruitless search for a dropped bolt....
I made myself useful with some lapping and some CC-ing:
We had the heads plunge-cut .055 at open-up,
But the chambers are still 56cc?
That only gives us 8:1 at .040 deck.
Sum ting wong.
In addition,
We found some porosity at the cylinder sealing surface.
Picked a bunch of mold sand out of a hole clear thru to air between fins:
So it looks like the heads are going back to our man Jim for some welding.
And since we need some more deck cut,
This all should be fixable with aid from the master.
In addition,
We found a pic in an old HotVWs.
Anyone remember "Project Streetwise"?
This was a stock-valve 1776 with heads by Fred Simpson:
Chambers unshrouded all the way to the cylinder wall...
That's the way to go for flow, right?
And we're cutting deck again,
So since we had the heads marked up....
Still more welding and cutting needed...
We'll get to some assembly here eventually!
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Brian_e
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 3284
Location: Rapid City, SD
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:47 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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You need to put the grinder away now. Your work here was done a while ago.
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7537
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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| Brian_e wrote: |
You need to put the grinder away now. Your work here was done a while ago. |
HA!
I knew someone would like that pic.
It's a "during".
We even flap-wheeled this time!
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Brian_e
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Location: Rapid City, SD
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:57 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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I have built countless sets of these AA500 heads, and I have never seen a casting flaw like that.
The seating surface on the valve face could be moved out quite a bit, and it will have very little effect on future valve jobs. I usually cut mine till they are about .020 from the face edge. I have seen about a 6-8cfm gain just making the seat wider on the face. It will still seal up fine, so carry on.
Brian
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Brian_e
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Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 3284
Location: Rapid City, SD
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:10 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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| Clatter wrote: |
| Brian_e wrote: |
You need to put the grinder away now. Your work here was done a while ago. |
HA!
I knew someone would like that pic.
It's a "during".
We even flap-wheeled this time! |
I don't mind the burr marks, I was just mentioning the amount of material removed, especially around the exhaust valve.
For future people reading this... unshrouding the valves is a very fine line. Blowing out a bunch of material around the valve will make the CFM on the flow bench go up. That's easy. The problem is you kill the pressure recovery from the port into the chamber. The goal is for the column of air to go from the port, through the seat area, past the valve head, and into the chamber as effortlessly as possible, and keep up the high velocity in the port, so the ram effect keeps going as the piston is coming back up the cylinder. If you blow out the walls around the valve, the column of fast moving air is dumping into a huge open area right after the seat. All the pressure is gone.
I am not saying This chamber here in the pic is completely blown out, but there is more material removed than I have found necessary.
Just a note for people down the road. I see lots of people killing chambers in hopes of more CFM, and more CC chamber volume.
Brian
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Alstrup
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Posts: 7212
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:37 am Post subject: Re: Jeff's Bus Stocker Plus |
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Yes. You will see some chambers on the net which is basicly like that. BUT, most of them are for higher rpm engines which changes the picture somewhat. For a lower rev engine dont remove more.
Wrt the seat cut. I agree. Part of the reason is that when the 30 degree angle gets so wide it sort of sends the flow too much in the wrong direction so the fuel have a harder time changing direction into the chamber. Correcting the seat as Brian says, or close to leaves for the option of a better undercut and a better transition into the chamber which can easily account for 3-4 hp. To put things into perspective. 4 hp @ 5000 rpm equals 4 lbs. 3 hp @ 3000 rpm equals over 5 lbs. 5 lbs more torque at 3000 rpm is noticeable in a 1776 engine.
I know this is not gonna happen, but those chambers almost screams for a 37,5 x 33 valve combination.
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