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132AH LiFePO4 easily fits inside the battery box
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BrownLoaf
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:21 pm    Post subject: 132AH LiFePO4 easily fits inside the battery box Reply with quote

As the title says, this thread is to share a 132 ah battery design that fits within the driver's side battery box without modification to the hinged cover or otherwise.

Our power needs in this van are simple for now: interior lights, sink pump, 12v outlets, and stereo. For this, 132 ah is overkill.

Future state is adding a DC fridge and Webasto/Espar. For this reason, the effort to source, learn, and assemble a 132 ah battery was worthwhile. The largest "drop in" battery (no modification) seemed to be 50 ah. That would not run a refrigerator for very long without recharging.

Thanks to Sodo who originally put these cells on my radar in the 150 ah battery thread quoted below. After a long search for cells with the most vanagon friendly dimensions and highest capacity, I circled back to these as the best choice.

Sodo wrote:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Rough dims of the battery box ~ 11.75+ x 6.75 x 6.75
132AH would run a Truckfridge for appx 3 days without driving the van.
These 132Ah LiFePO4 are $439 on AliExpress and "they say" there's US stock, 3-7 days.

For most weekend warriors with an electric fridge,
100Ah (of LiFePO) is "pretty good" in the heat of summer.
Off summer, 100Ah is way good.
Especially if you drive the van an hour or so over the weekend.

130Ah that fits into that battery hole (safely below the lid) seems like a really good size for a Vanagon.
There could be others that fit too, this is just one that crossed my screen.


Despite the seller stating "US Stock," be prepared to wait for them to ship across the Pacific. My order took about 6 weeks to arrive. Shopping from Aliexpress was a strange but mostly straightforward experience. Don't forget to apply coupons and save a few bucks Smile

I researched battery management systems, was intrigued by active balancing models, but ultimately went with the passive balancing Overkill Solar JDB BMS for the company's awesome DIY support, US base, and QA inspection.

Here is a photo of where the battery will live. The ASI Riviera campers came with a thermo-formed plastic battery enclosure designed to fit the vanagon battery box, complete with vent holes on the underside for off-gassing out of the living space. There is an upper half of the enclosure that is not shown in the photo. The small fuse panel shown is how the fuse 8 and 9 circuits (interior lights, radio, and cig lighter) are currently powered by a portable battery when camping. This will eventually be connected to a bus bar near the new battery.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Top balancing the cells in parallel to 3.65 per cell took 3 days, running almost constantly. To speed this up next time, I would charge the cells in series to 13.6 and then switch to parallel charging for the final charge and top balance.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Be sure to use a volt meter to check the polarity of each cell terminal (in case any are mislabled), as well as the output voltage of the power supply. My cheap 10amp power supply was off by about 30 mV.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Individual cells were labeled and assembled to each other using small pieces of VHB tape. Intent being that the gaps between the tape and cells will help with airflow around the cells.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I then used thick electrical moisture sealing tape in two strips along the bottom to give the cells padded feet. Historically, I've used this tape to protect and quiet bicycle chainstays from chainslap.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Next, a layer of Gaffer's tape was wrapped around the cells. I'd never used this type of tape before, but it was recommended by Overkill Solar. It seems similar to duct tape but leaves no residue behind.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Next, the BMS was taped to the side of the cells using VHB, and the external temperature sensor was taped to the side of a cell using a few layers of Kapton tape.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Last assembly step was to measure, cut, and crimp the balance leads. Be sure to triple check which lead goes to which terminal. Do not connect the balance plug into the BMS until all leads are connected to the correct terminals, or else the BMS may be destroyed.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And finally, the battery installed in the van! I really like how well the cells and BMS fit inside the Riviera enclosure. The only bummer is that the lid of the enclosure no longer fits under the hinge. I have some plexiglass that I may use to fabricate a different size lid in the future. Until then, I will insulate the underside of the hinged battery box cover.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The internet is full of opinions and different methods of assembling LiFePO4 cells. Surely there is always a better way. This design is what I believe will work well for me. One thing I may add later is a heating mat under the cells to allow charging below freezing. For now, I wanted to keep things simple and reassess our needs in the future.

Next, I will finish the charging and house electrical renovations.
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calo1956
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:45 pm    Post subject: Re: 132AH LiFePO4 easily fits inside the battery box Reply with quote

Very cool setup!
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:46 pm    Post subject: Re: 132AH LiFePO4 easily fits inside the battery box Reply with quote

Excellent post. What was your total cost?

Joe
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:48 pm    Post subject: Re: 132AH LiFePO4 easily fits inside the battery box Reply with quote

Just a couple things I went through, so as to add to your growing list.

1: No idea where you might go on your travels, but I go where not many are willing, and those places get cold, really cold. The battery box under the DR seat gets REALLY cold REALLY easy. Just get something under there BEFORE you have to take it all apart again. I got a 250 watt matt used for a 3D printer heater plate, its roughly the same footprint as those cells you have. I use a PWM to limit the wattage going into the heater pad, and I have a "on at 32 (or below) and off at 45F "snap disk" rigged up. Life saver. Or, more directly, while driving into a really bad cold front that dropped about 50F in 2 hours, the PWM shut everything down, so then I had to scramble. It was very uncomfortable. I can't find the exact item online just now, but VERY useful.

2: Compress the cells, or rather, don't let them "bloat". I did not incorporate a compression scheme in my battery box setup, and one of the cells has bloated, and is now the one that the BMS reports to be undervolt vs the other three. Therefor, I am now facing premature degradation. It is extremely difficult to replaced just ONE CELL.

Looks like you are on the right track for your present needs. Faith, love, and duty; you will soon find at least one leg of the tripod gets changed; think forward on when the Fridge needs to get bigger Wink

-bobby
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:10 am    Post subject: Re: 132AH LiFePO4 easily fits inside the battery box Reply with quote

2 quick questions. How do you access your BMS to monitor? The other question is, does your BMS display all 4 battery voltages?

I did something similar with AGM batteries and within a year, one battery took out the other 3 and my Xantrex charger inverter. I had no way to measure individual batteries or to easily isolate them for testing. Thanks.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 6:34 am    Post subject: Re: 132AH LiFePO4 easily fits inside the battery box Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:
2 quick questions. How do you access your BMS to monitor? The other question is, does your BMS display all 4 battery voltages?

I did something similar with AGM batteries and within a year, one battery took out the other 3 and my Xantrex charger inverter. I had no way to measure individual batteries or to easily isolate them for testing. Thanks.


That BMS has a bluetooth interface, the little dongle with the blue light on top of the battery, and all data can be read from an app on your phone as long as you are within Bluetooth range of the battery.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 8:16 am    Post subject: Re: 132AH LiFePO4 easily fits inside the battery box Reply with quote

Did you capacity test the batteries or accepting the sales pitch as fact?

Good to hear that you got your batteries without any hitch. Aliexpress does have a lot of crooks and it appears Aliexpress really does not care. I suspect they do, but with as many as they have, it appears not.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:45 pm    Post subject: Re: 132AH LiFePO4 easily fits inside the battery box Reply with quote

Just wanted to mention that I like to have a rest at my "lunch hour" and that is mainly why I drive my bus (nearly) every day -- at least to work, anyway. On the other days, I drive it just because I LIKE to.

In the build I was (still am?) working on, I did not yet add a compressor fridge to the "cost equation" for the battery I decided on, which back then being aprox. the same physical size as your cells, but 120aH. My intention was to be comfortable in cold weather. The world was bringing together several low cost options for both LFP cells, and CDH heaters. Well, today being -3F and that not being unusual around here in winter, I took a look at my consumption as I got into nap mode at lunch. Hmmm.. the same BMS as OP uses showed my cells sitting at -1.5C, which I don't like. Fortunately, I have my adjustable PWM that offers variable power to the heater mat and I bumped it up from 20 watts to just under 30 watts, and then took a nap. The BMS reported that the temp had gone up to +0.3C in just under an hour. I like that I can control the mat heater to raise the temp of the battery slowly.

My total wattage on the heating system at "idle" is 40 watts, including the battery heater. Total at heater full blast is 60 watts. I didn't turn on my bus router, plug in my cell phone to deliver USB tethering or turn on the TV, so that will have to wait for tomorrow, if anyone wants to hear how much power all that uses if I were throwing all my draws at it Wink I did try out my Starlink with the system when I first got it. That would have provided about 10 hours of entertainment time on one charge of the battery. My use of a USB tethered router makes more sense to me than lugging Dishy around.

At ~60 watts, my BMS reports about 28 hours left, after keeping the bus warm since 7 AM until noon, not that it was at full heat production the whole time, but if it were somehow to get a LOT colder and need to keep going full blast for the rest of the time until I got back into the garage that is what I was seeing. The BMS says 15aH used from 7AM through 12:50 PM. I am so tickled Smile

The 2KW CDH with AfterBurner easily keeps the bus at 68F in this weather.

PS. I do know how to be humble, I just don't show it very often Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:27 pm    Post subject: Re: 132AH LiFePO4 easily fits inside the battery box Reply with quote

What's the cost for that battery setup? Sorry if it's in the post, I don't have the attention span to read through it all.

Also, VMAX 75ah fits fine.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2023 7:15 am    Post subject: Re: 132AH LiFePO4 easily fits inside the battery box Reply with quote

Here is a list of my costs on this project.

Cells: $438
BMS: $159

Tools and consumables (will be used for other projects):
Tapes: $45
Variable power supply: $68

Here is what the Overkill Solar BMS phone app looks like while powering a spare headlight bulb. It provides an impressive amount of information and adjustability to the settings.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I have not done a capacity test to see how close to 132ah the cells are. I have a Victron shunt coming which I hope will give me more insight into total capacity while in use.

Bobby, you've inspired me to go back to researching battery heaters. Thank you for the information. Is there a Samba thread for yours?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2023 9:12 am    Post subject: Re: 132AH LiFePO4 easily fits inside the battery box Reply with quote

loganthecyclist wrote:


Bobby, you've inspired me to go back to researching battery heaters. Thank you for the information. Is there a Samba thread for yours?


Logan, not an exclusive one, sorry. However, I did contribute to this thread with the information you might find useful:

bobbyblack wrote:
erste wrote:
bobbyblack wrote:
Heater pad under battery location (driver side)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/2117724.jpg

Nice progress!
Info on this heating pad?


Signswise 200x200mm 12V 220W Silicone Rubber Heating Heater for 3D Printer Heated Beds

$17

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B018XBWGHC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Still need to figure out a thermostatic controller for it. Let me know if you come up with something.


PWM's I use in a number of locations:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B089273KVZ?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00RWI0O4A/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Snap disk:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0026S6WGK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1



https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...;start=120

bobbyblack wrote:
Its been quite a good weekend. Weather outside was great, but I spent the daylight hours in my garage installing my LiFePO4 house batter system. I had a lot of 'thinky time' so the 14 or so hours I was "Working on it [Honey]" should have been more like 6?

Wires are hard. Fear is REAL. Triple checked everything and when I finally set the breaker, and it didn't pop and did power up the fuse panel and inverter, I was relieved.

Here are a few things I did:


Heater pad under battery location (driver side)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Stowed Victron 5A AC charger under driver seat.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Got frustrated sticking my head in the cupboard and decided to make a easily removable sub panel to mount the inverter and fuse panel.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Used some roofing rubber to make a flappy box to both secure and isolate the cells.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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And turned on the Reactor!!

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


D pillar DC-DC charger / Breaker setup. I couldn't figure out how to use the Orion's 'switch' so I added a relay. I ran a blue/white wire along with my #8 up behind the cabinets, and hooked it to the blue wire on the Westy kitchen relay.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Cheers !!!

-bobby





Here is what I did for my CDH. I am going to turn it around and put the heat output up to the Westy Stove plate like dobryan and others soon.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...;start=860

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...start=1200


i

dobryan wrote:
Here is how I routed the silicone wire reinforced tubing in the kitchen unit. My heater is mounted under the floor where the propane tank used to be. I have a 'Y' as soon as it comes thru the floor of the kitchen unit. One goes to the faceplate as shown above. The other exists at the back of the kitchen unit woith a free standing vent cover.

On my syncro project I'll put the heater in the cubby next to the kitchen unit and run the tubing from there.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9354250&highlight=kitchen#9354250


More interesting pix, Brandon/Dave, I think

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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:20 pm    Post subject: Re: 132AH LiFePO4 easily fits inside the battery box Reply with quote

Okay, so you didn't ask for it, but I threatened... so here is my "all in" draw, includes CDH heater on full blast, a couple of fans, my inverter powering my router, which is fed through USB tether, and the TV. 8.5 amps! Comfy!

The old girl didn't like -15F this AM very much though.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 6:02 am    Post subject: Re: 132AH LiFePO4 easily fits inside the battery box Reply with quote

Thanks for the info on your setup Bobby. Looks great!

To keep the battery warmer and more cushioned, I put down a layer of reflective floor underlayment. This, plus the plastic battery enclosure, will act as a thermal break from the cold sheet metal in the wheel well.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I finished this battery phase of my electrical project over the weekend. Well, "finished" for now anyways. I may go back and add a battery heater, and I will likely be adding a portable solar panel connected to the Redarc charger in the future. One step at a time since I'm doing all this for the first time...

Completed layout under the driver's seat:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I've read that the Redarc charger can get hot, so I spaced it off the panel to provide extra airflow.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


System overview, all cleaned up before reinstalling the seats. By trimming the upper shell of the Riviera battery enclosure, I was able to get it to fit! The LiFePo battery now lives in an insulated enclosure, and the hinged lid can still close.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 6:07 am    Post subject: Re: 132AH LiFePO4 easily fits inside the battery box Reply with quote

Here is the Redarc powered on for the first time, engine running.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Getting the full rated 25 amps! After running for a few minutes, the current dropped to 0 amps, as it should for LiFePo4 being brought to full charge.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:46 pm    Post subject: Re: 132AH LiFePO4 easily fits inside the battery box Reply with quote

Your shunt isn’t hooked up correctly. Easy fix though, remove the most rearward connection to the negative buss bar and attach it to the shunts forward post. Remove the short jumper from that same post. Then add a jumper from the shunts rear post to the negative buss bar. In essence you want any and all electricity to have to flow through the shunt.

BK
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 3:57 pm    Post subject: Re: 132AH LiFePO4 easily fits inside the battery box Reply with quote

To quote page 9 of the manual (https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/SmartShunt/9172-Manual_BMV_and_SmartShunt-pdf-en.pdf)
“ Note that there should be no other connections on this side of the shunt or on the negative battery terminal. Any loads or chargers connected here will be excluded from the battery state of charge calculation.”

FYI

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 8:46 pm    Post subject: Re: 132AH LiFePO4 easily fits inside the battery box Reply with quote

1988M5 wrote:
Your shunt isn’t hooked up correctly. Easy fix though, remove the most rearward connection to the negative buss bar and attach it to the shunts forward post. Remove the short jumper from that same post. Then add a jumper from the shunts rear post to the negative buss bar. In essence you want any and all electricity to have to flow through the shunt.

BK


BK, thank you for catching this and for providing the explanation! I now understand that the loads on the negative bus were bypassing the shunt.

Once I make a trip to the local marine store for some more cable lugs, I'll make the new cable and install it between negative bus and 'system minus' side of the shunt.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:32 pm    Post subject: Re: 132AH LiFePO4 easily fits inside the battery box Reply with quote

This evening I made the new negative cable and installed it.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I'm excited to finally have a proper house battery system in the camper, and one that can be expanded upon!

Cheers,
Logan
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:50 am    Post subject: Re: 132AH LiFePO4 easily fits inside the battery box Reply with quote

If the big thick wire on the left is the battery negative, why is there another wire connected to the same post of the shunt? The battery negative should be the ONLY connection to the shunt input post, so that all current flows through the shunt.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:45 pm    Post subject: Re: 132AH LiFePO4 easily fits inside the battery box Reply with quote

fxr wrote:
If the big thick wire on the left is the battery negative, why is there another wire connected to the same post of the shunt? The battery negative should be the ONLY connection to the shunt input post, so that all current flows through the shunt.


The thick wire on the left side of the shunt goes to chassis ground. The battery negative is connected to the right side of the shunt.
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