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EDragnDean Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2005 Posts: 1148 Location: Vancouver, WA
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BFB Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014 Posts: 1762
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Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:25 am Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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Your not going to find much info out there , ppl dont just hand out something they took years to learn and not to mention its different for each engine…
I bet it took me two years to get to a point where i understood this crap.
Theres a lot of other things to factor too, compression ratio, combustion chamber, AFR, assume your not slinging many rpms in bus..
But i will say that , to me, your map seems a i little erratic. Like where one spot will randomly be a degree or two off from the relative spots to it. And your idle timing fluctuates across the board . Dos that matter much? Maybe not, your not going to see 500 rpm at WOT but it does help make more sense of things to see it more organized and be able to pick out a box that’s an anomaly.
Also looks like your just trying to run as much timing as you can , 31 and 32 degrees at WOT @2500 rpm is a lot and so is 35 at anywhere but lean cruze.
Id suggest you clean up your goofy spots that are out of place, then drop WOT ( more timing on the lean Cruze side and less at WOT ) then use the blend to smooth it all out. Hell you could probably just drop the whole map 4* from what it is now and see how it does. Best way to figure it out is to just do it, every engine is different and will tell you what it likes. Also, save your maps before you change them its easier to just load a previous map if you dont like the new changes than it is to try and remember what you changed… _________________ Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1 |
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F4u5T Aircooled Idiot
Joined: April 11, 2009 Posts: 533 Location: Bristol,VA
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Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2023 11:10 am Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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This is a older thread, I know....but I've started attempting to interface to the Blackbox. End goal is to retrieve the data and push is to a dashmount lcd, with a rpi.
Any interest in something like this? _________________ 71' Ghia Roadster |
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pleasehelp123 Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2023 Posts: 6 Location: portland or
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Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2023 9:12 am Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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Hi guys,first off I don't have a VW,im trying to install CB blackbox in my 1974 Triumph Spitfire 1500
I have a Delco D204 points activated distributor.
I have motor at 70 BTDC rotor pointing at #1,will not start
Timing light will flash at 70 degrees and around 15, then nothing until it repeats.
When #1 plug sparks the rotor is closer to #2 cap post,im going to try moving leads round 1 spot.
Am I missing something?
Any tips gratefully received
Thanks
Andy |
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Lo Cash John Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2004 Posts: 2246 Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2023 11:44 am Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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F4u5T wrote: |
This is a older thread, I know....but I've started attempting to interface to the Blackbox. End goal is to retrieve the data and push is to a dashmount lcd, with a rpi.
Any interest in something like this? |
That would be a neat piece of data to have. Any idea on cost? _________________ www.LoCashRacing.org
More brains than bucks...Believe it or not!!
If you actually drive your VW, you need www.AirMapp.com
My boss told me I need to work on my mutli-tasking. So now when I use the bathroom at work I surf The Samba on my iPhone. |
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Lo Cash John Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2004 Posts: 2246 Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2023 11:59 am Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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pleasehelp123 wrote: |
Hi guys,first off I don't have a VW,im trying to install CB blackbox in my 1974 Triumph Spitfire 1500
I have a Delco D204 points activated distributor.
I have motor at 70 BTDC rotor pointing at #1,will not start
Timing light will flash at 70 degrees and around 15, then nothing until it repeats.
When #1 plug sparks the rotor is closer to #2 cap post,im going to try moving leads round 1 spot.
Am I missing something?
Any tips gratefully received
Thanks
Andy |
Step 1. Make sure the advance mechanisms in the distributor are "locked out".
Step 2, Get the engine running and idling NORMAL without the black box installed. You need to know EXACTLY how many degrees before Top Dead Center this is. Just as an example let's say 12* before TDC.
Step 3. With engine off, place timing marks on crank pulley that goes all the way to 70* (or more) before TDC. There are several ways to do this, either with a temporary timing wheel, timing tape, etc...
Step 4. With distributor cap off, turn engine by hand until the rotor is pointed at #1 firing position and the crank marks show 12* before TDC (or wherever it was timed in step 2)
Step 5. Use a dab of paint or paint pen to put alignment marks on the distributor housing and the rotor.
Step 6. Turn crank "backwards" until you are at 70* before TDC. If you WERE at 12* before TDC, you would have just tuned crank 58* to reach this point.
Step 7. Rotate distributor housing "backwards" until the painted alignment marks are in alignment again. Lock dist clamp in place.
Step 8. Install and wire black box per the schematics for points.
Step 9. Crank engine. If everything was done correctly it will fire right up.
Step 10. Use a timing light to make absolute certain the timing value in the software (on computer screen) IS exactly the same as timing marks on the crank.
Post back here with results or if you need help.
Cheers!!! _________________ www.LoCashRacing.org
More brains than bucks...Believe it or not!!
If you actually drive your VW, you need www.AirMapp.com
My boss told me I need to work on my mutli-tasking. So now when I use the bathroom at work I surf The Samba on my iPhone. |
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mikedjames Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2012 Posts: 2745 Location: Hamble, Hampshire, UK
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Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 12:26 am Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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EDragnDean wrote: |
Looking for Map info from the Samba collective.
Yes, I've done the search, sadly lacking in info
Specs -- 1970 Bay Window- 091 trans -- 1968cc Engle 100 cam, Panchito heads, Kaddie Shack Kadrons, VS exhaust
1agna Spark 2 - locked out, running my vacuum source via the balance tube.
Here is where my spark table is currently at. Idle and cruise seem good, but the acceleration is a little lacking, I am also thinking a typical SVDA has more advance at the no load area?
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I think if you look hard at the stock distributor curves you get up to more like 12 degrees additional vacuum advance .. _________________ Ancient vehicles and vessels
1974 VW T2 : Devon Eurovette camper with 1641 DP T1 engine, Progressive carb, full flow oil cooler, EDIS crank timed ignition.
Engine 1: 40k miles (rocker shaft clip fell off), Engine 2: 30k miles (rebuild, dropped valve). Engine 3: a JK Preservation Parts "new" engine, aluminium case: 26k miles: new top end.
Gearbox rebuild 2021 by Bears.
1979 Westerly GK24 24 foot racer/cruiser yacht Forethought of Gosport.
1973 wooden Pacer sailing dinghy |
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pleasehelp123 Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2023 Posts: 6 Location: portland or
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Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 7:34 am Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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Thankyou Lo Cash John,i will get back to it this weekend,will post results
Regards Andy |
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boxer74 Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2011 Posts: 709 Location: Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 5:39 am Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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Question for those that have installed a black box. Where did you locate it? I've seen people place it under the rear seat, but also CB shows on their site that they mount it to the fan shroud.
If under rear seat, did you need to remove the engine to route the vacuum line and wiring?
I was thinking I would pull the carbs and intakes (which needs to be done anyways to add vacuum barbs) and then that would clear up space to drill a hole through the front tin next to fuel line grommet. _________________ 74 Super
84 Westy |
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pleasehelp123 Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2023 Posts: 6 Location: portland or
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Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:47 am Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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Hi guys i had no luck starting my 74 spitfire up with the blackbox connected the coil crapped out,installed new 12v coil i have no ballast or resistor wire
I now have it back running and idling great at 12BTDC with a pertronix dizzy
I dont understand how it will fire at the right time,going another 58 degrees advance,how wide is the blade on the rotor you guys run?
The Spitfire blade is a small narrow straight design,maybe to narrow to cover the gap between where the spark happens and the terminal
Thanks for any advice
Regards Andy |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7219 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:50 am Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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The 70 degrees to your max timing (45) is the time the software need to calculate the timing based on rpm and vacum.
I have never installed a BB on a spitfire. In fact I did not know that it would handle positive ground. I have always used MJ´s on british engines. Then i also got rid of the ignition flutter at the same time.
Wrt. the rotor phasing. You need to mark the body to where the terminal is, then you turn the engine to a couple of degrees before lowest timing (say 8 degrees) then you mark where the rear of the rotor is. Then you turn the engine forward to max timing (say 40 degrees) and mark the front of the distributor. Both positions should preferably be withing the terminal width. A couple of degrees don´t matter much, but if it is more than that it will be beneficial to widen the rotor "wing". I typically use a reaper shape piece of copper which i solder to the existing rotor. This will also minimize the occasional kick back. _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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pleasehelp123 Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2023 Posts: 6 Location: portland or
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Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:00 am Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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Thanks i will try this,my spitfire is - ground
Regards Andy |
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Lo Cash John Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2004 Posts: 2246 Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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I'm not certain what isn't being done correctly. I've installed a few BB units and have never had an issue. What is critical is to know exact crank angles (Use timing tape on your pulley or buy a suitable degree wheel and make necessary marks) and to properly mark the ignition rotor relative to the distributor body. _________________ www.LoCashRacing.org
More brains than bucks...Believe it or not!!
If you actually drive your VW, you need www.AirMapp.com
My boss told me I need to work on my mutli-tasking. So now when I use the bathroom at work I surf The Samba on my iPhone. |
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pleasehelp123 Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2023 Posts: 6 Location: portland or
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Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:36 am Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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i got it running normally,followed instructions to the letter checked by a colleague while i was doing it,nothing happens no fire and now the coil is toast
we think the blade on the rotor is too narrow on a delco distributor to make up the gap to the terminal
Thanks for all the advice guys but this project is on hold for now
Regards Andy |
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benozoval56 Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2022 Posts: 28 Location: Seacombe Gardens
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Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2023 12:54 am Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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Lingwendil wrote: |
Has anybody tried a small vacuum block instead of tees to join together all the vacuum lines for the MAP signal? I'm going to be running a different ignition controller with similar functionality (Daytona TCS-1) and need to bring together all the vacuum lines, and I would think a small vacuum log as a tiny plenum should give a nice smooth consistency to the vacuum reference. |
or do you really need all 4 vacuum signals?? |
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EDragnDean Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2005 Posts: 1148 Location: Vancouver, WA
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Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2023 7:09 am Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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benozoval56 wrote: |
Lingwendil wrote: |
Has anybody tried a small vacuum block instead of tees to join together all the vacuum lines for the MAP signal? I'm going to be running a different ignition controller with similar functionality (Daytona TCS-1) and need to bring together all the vacuum lines, and I would think a small vacuum log as a tiny plenum should give a nice smooth consistency to the vacuum reference. |
or do you really need all 4 vacuum signals?? |
Depends on your carb configuration. I'm running dual kadrons, and 1 signal tied into the balance tube works fine. _________________ 63 Double Cab http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=443823&highlight=deanos
66 Bus Click to view image - SOLD
73 Thing http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8111202#8111202
70 BusClick to view image |
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Lingwendil Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009 Posts: 3988 Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2023 10:27 am Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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benozoval56 wrote: |
Lingwendil wrote: |
Has anybody tried a small vacuum block instead of tees to join together all the vacuum lines for the MAP signal? I'm going to be running a different ignition controller with similar functionality (Daytona TCS-1) and need to bring together all the vacuum lines, and I would think a small vacuum log as a tiny plenum should give a nice smooth consistency to the vacuum reference. |
or do you really need all 4 vacuum signals?? |
Sometimes. Depends on the setup, cam duration, sensor, etc.
Most of the inline-4 ITB applications you see this done to get a stronger or more consistent signal. With the way the flat four engine has a series of vac pulses it cant hurt having a way to accumulate the signals into one with less variation.
I haven't set mine up yet for it, but have a box ready to go when I get around to it.
_________________ 73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!
Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884
Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087! |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7219 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2023 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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Lingwendil wrote: |
I haven't set mine up yet for it, but have a box ready to go when I get around to it.
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Get your foot out of your mouth
On the other hand, who am I to push on _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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benozoval56 Samba Member
Joined: April 13, 2022 Posts: 28 Location: Seacombe Gardens
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Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2023 6:34 pm Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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Lingwendil wrote: |
benozoval56 wrote: |
Lingwendil wrote: |
Has anybody tried a small vacuum block instead of tees to join together all the vacuum lines for the MAP signal? I'm going to be running a different ignition controller with similar functionality (Daytona TCS-1) and need to bring together all the vacuum lines, and I would think a small vacuum log as a tiny plenum should give a nice smooth consistency to the vacuum reference. |
or do you really need all 4 vacuum signals?? |
Sometimes. Depends on the setup, cam duration, sensor, etc.
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Dual 44mm Italian Weber IDFs, thinking if I balance out the 4 air bypass settings via digital vacuum synchroniser the vacuum signal from any of the ports "should" be accurate/sufficient... |
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chrisflstf Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004 Posts: 3446 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2023 8:29 am Post subject: Re: Everything about CB Performance Black Box |
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Dumb question for setting up spark table first time.
If im not using any vacuum input, just setting advance based on rpm, what cells on the spark table get changed? All of them? Just the left most cells?
In other words, if default idle timing is 10, and i want 12, do I populate all cells horizontally with the new number?
Thanks Chris |
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