72 Type 3 Rust On Trans Tunnel.

[tjmartin317]

So I have the car off the ground, drivers side pan unbolted but not out (still figuring out where to cut, specifically at the front towards the pedals). However, I’m not noticing rust under the car at the trans tunnel which, once the pans are unbolted and detached, will be holding up most of the car…

These holes are towards the front of the tunnel where it attaches to the front frame. It’s very crinkly in the surrounding area. Then there’s the side of the tunnel facing the drivers feet:

That squiggly bit towards where the pan ends and hole behind is my brake line. Copper blends into rust very well. And yeah, it’s not straight, but it does work.

Obviously this all has to get cut away in order to attempt any repairs/welds/structuralness… but with the drivers side unbolted and that weakened area underneath/in the front, is it even safe to have this thing up in the air? Should I set it back down and reevaluate? I don’t think taking the body off is in the cards… and if it is, it’s going to be an incredibly daunting ordeal/a long weekends worth of work (for an inexperienced fellah like myself) and May result in the body never going back on (due, again, to my inexperience).

Any experts in the WV panhandle area?

[Bobnotch]

Well, you already know what you need to do to fix it...cut and weld in new metal. If you pull the body off, you could flip the pan over, so that the center tunnel plate can be fixed. This would also be the time to replace the left floor pan half. If you look at the pan section you need to replace, you'll see there's a lip about 1 inch in front, and 5/8ths to 3/4 inch on the side (tunnel side). You trim to those flat areas, and that'll be what you build on. Look at my Krunchy pics in my gallery to see how I did my own car (71 Notch), as that was the rustiest type 3 I've ever rebuilt.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120

[tjmartin317]

Yes, definitely repairing. However, is it even safe to have the car in its current state? Up on stands with the body half on? The safest thing to do would, ironically, be getting the body completely off, but in the time between now and then should I consider getting the car back on the ground or revolting the floor pan in place (even if it’s mostly gone) just to add some extra help.

As an aside, that 5/8th lip on the tunnel side is mostly missing towards the drivers pedals. When I clean that area, it’ll almost certainly have been devoured by rust… guessing I’ll have to weld new metal in just so I can attach the pan to something.

Will poke around your gallery, though in all honesty, I’m not hip enough with The Samba as a website to know how to fully navigate it yet lol

[GjMan]

How badly rusted is the body itself? Could you post some pics of the heater channels and lower A pillars?

[Mike Fisher]

If your pedal area etc is rusty, then you'll probably have to lift the body off the pan and weld in the full new pans.
It will go easier/faster like Bobnotch did his rebuilds.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390
_________________
https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold

Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey

[Ossipon]

I would agree with everything everyone has said in regards to post more pics (Farther away and not so close) AND that you likely need to lift the body off the pan.
I considered Lifting my body off the pan, but went the route you are seriously considering. The difference is I inspected my tunnel before making my decision.
I replaced one side at a time, With lift supports on the body as well as multiple jacks under the frame to hold it up.
My Tunnel was solid, not so much the inner fender area

After numerous test fits, I finally installed the Gerson and stitched it into place.

I did only one side at a time. What did not help is the OO replaced the driver side with a Ghia pan and did not replace the inner fender shelf. I had to replace that side as well.

Bottom line, If you go down the body on pan replacement. Use what BobNotch did, but start on strengthening the tunnel. Remember the tunnel is critical for frame integrity while the pan area is removed. Cut and paste welds can weaken the tunnel integrity if not done properly. Fin
This is what I followed and modded slightly for my pan replacement
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=574362
_________________
Ossipon
VWs in my life:
Air
Type 1 - 59, 62, 63, 71 Super 68 KGhia/ Type 2 - 59 Single Cab / Type 3 - 64 Notch
Water
GTI 83, Jetta 81, 85, 87, 91 TDI, 98 TDI, 09 / New Beetle 99 / SportWagen 05, 13 / Tiguan 18 / T3 92

[tjmartin317]

Posting more photos as requested:

Under drivers side:

Drivers side heater channel:

Pretty crusty all the way to the voltage regulator:

I’m scared of that electrical spaghetti…

Passengers side needs far fewer photos to explain the damage:

Against all odds though, the rear of that pan where the rear passengers feet would be is basically solid:

If the whole car were that solid I’d be a happy camper. Will be melding this half of the pan to a front pan half that came from ISP west. Drivers side has a full gersun.

My side of the car is more important, after all.

All this said, Ossi, your restoration gives me some hope. To my untrained eye, your channels looked far worse than mine.

So, again, bolt the pan back on for structural support?

[Ossipon]

[Bobnotch]

This is a shot of the original pan in my 71 Notch. At this point I have the doors off, and the seats and carpet out.

This is the body flying in my garage.

This is the pan with the body removed. You can see some of the remains of the pan still in place. Background shows the body on a cart.

Pan tunnel with rusty floor metal stripped off.

Test fit of left floor pan. Notice the frame head in the background.

Rusty frame head removed and being prepped for replacement.

New frame head tacked on with new to car floor pans and beam being fitted. The old beam had a broken torsion bar and was very rusty too.

Both floor pans and the frame head getting welded up. This was done before blasting and painting of the pan.

I hope these help.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120

[Bobnotch]

As for accessing my gallery pics, just click on the gallery button up in the header, then type in Bobnotch, then click on Notchback. Then go to page 11, as that's the start of the 71 Notch construction pics. You'll also see some shots of my 65 Notch (the Bavarian metallic blue car) getting some things done to it like IRS engine hanger brackets, front cowl replacement and maybe some sunroof repair pics. As you can see from my 71 Notch pics, the outer edges of the floors were gone, and one of it's PO's reskinned the rockers welding them to the floors, where they rusted out. I think they were trying for a 2fer, fixing the rocker rust, and patching the floors.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120

[Bobnotch]

These are of the pans getting blasted.

Yes, the pans still needed some patching as you can see some light passing thru the pans (thin spots).

The finished result, Epoxy primer, paint, and clear coat...sealed.

Yes, it's a lot of work, but I did most of it after work and on weekends. My wife and the kids knew where I was, as all they had to do was walk outside to see/talk to me.
That frame work set up was from a friends "portable garage" that had been damaged from high winds. I hauled it off, and used some new pipe I picked up from a dumpster to create a shady spot for blasting. Zero money spent, just some time to build it. Having a welder IS handy.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120

[tjmartin317]

Alright, specifically paging Bobnotch, but all are welcome to answer: I'm guessing the engine stays with the body. Which means most if not all of the electrical wiring does (maybe not the speedometer cable). But in all these mega restorations it looks as if the engine is a completely separate entity. Does that come out first, then the body off?

Another quick question: I unbolted the driver's side floor pan a few weekends ago (didn't make any cuts). Should I have braced things first (a and b pillars specifically) or was I alright to do that? Worried I caused accidental damage just by unbolting that, even though the pans provided little to no structure in the first place (since they're mostly... well... gone...)

I'm going to have to talk to my landlord. Considering the weather is improving and I do have a back deck, the body may end up sitting in that area. It would be outside, so any input on how to keep it safe from the elements would be appreciated. From there, I would do the subframe in the garage, then the body on the back deck (landlord/neighbors permitting... which might be a stretch, I do live in a townhouse complex... which makes this more complex)

[W1K1]

[Bobnotch]

[tjmartin317]

Some of you may wince at this question, but for ease of restoration, is there any way to keep the engine attached to the body while still taking the body off? That'd eliminate the need to untangle my spaghetti mess of electric wires and the ECU. I only ask in order to simplify the steps needed in the rebuild process. After all, taking everything apart is easy. Putting it back together? Not always the case. Would be good to leave what works (well enough) in place. Also means the fuel lines can stay (mostly) attached.

[Bobnotch]

[GjMan]

Not really. Engine is attached to both pan (thru the subframe) and body. Don't worry about putting it all back together. Samba members collectively have literally centuries of experience that can help you with any problem. We like showing off our knowledge!

As for fuel lines, you should be replacing them in any case.

[tjmartin317]

I did read your reply, and I appreciate the extra info Mr. Notch. I was just a little confused by what the FI harness encompassed. I haven't dug too deep into the electrics yet (other than making sure they're all plugged in correctly) because it worked. And any tampering I did could risk making them... well... not work.

The FI harness you're talking about, does it pretty much include every electrical wire I'll need to unplug from the engine? Or is it just the injectors and maybe other components? I know there's one long harness that runs down the driver's side heater channel past the voltage regulator. I'm guessing some of those bits plug into the engine/will need to be removed...

Body on is seeming to be less and less of an option. The trans tunnel is worse than I initially thought, so keeping the load of the body on the tunnel while the pans are out isn't exactly comforting. If that snaps in two, I'm in real trouble. Besides, repairing the body and repairing the subframe are beginning to feel like two totally different animals, even if it's all welding and cutting. May as well make them two separate entities.

[Bobnotch]

I believe there are 4 wires from the main body wiring harness that plug into the FI wiring. Those are the #19 FI relay ground for the fuel pump. The 2 wires in the left front corner of the engine compartment that actually power up the ECU from the under rear seat relays. And there should be wire from the starter to the ECU for power when starting (#18/31), and a cold start wire from the starter to the cold start thermo switch on the right side of the engine (from there it goes to the cold start injector). I believe the rest of the wiring for the FI can stay in place. Since you have it running, I'd leave it all in place, and just unplug it from the ECU, and snake it back into the engine compartment and coil it up on the engine.
I hope this helps.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120

[tjmartin317]

Great! Absolutely great! 5 or 6 wires is nowhere near as bad as unplugging every little bit attached to the engine. Will dig into that more and more.

Before moving into that phase though, I’m guessing there’s some prep work to do (drain the engine of oil and remove battery to ensure I don’t accidentally kill my unlubricated engine). But since the car is full of oil as of now, I’d like to derail this thread one more time to talk about this newly noticed oil leak puddle:

I’ve had oil under the car since the day I first got it running (and even before that), but never this much. Went to make sure the engine was alive (I like to do that every week or two) when I saw my first drip. It lead to this puddle, long and lean, that points right at the connection of the engine and trans:

I’m guessing this is something that requires the engine to come out in order to fix anyways, but if anyone knows what needs fixing (rear main seal?) and how easy it is to fix (hopefully easy by comparison to body repair) that’d be great!

Oh, and Bob, your knowledge is invaluable, and I hope one day I can shake your hand. Thank you!