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L51C_75
Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2004
Posts: 54
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vanis13
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2010
Posts: 3098
Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
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 Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: Stock Spring Replacements |
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Interesting -
The part fits Transporter 1979-1991 per clicking on part number in top right of info page you linked
Springs don't show up under Vanagon model
and the Transporter model is identified as Canadian and is only a model in RockAuto VWs in 1985-1991
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83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace
www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5391
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 9:00 am Post subject: Re: Stock Spring Replacements |
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So...here's the question: If your current ride height is as you like it, why do you want to replace your existing springs?
Springs do not get softer with age. What they do tend to lose with age is "load height". This simply means they get shorter with age. Unless it breaks or is modified in some way, whatever spring rate (stiffness) that spring left the factory with will essentially remain and will not change to any appreciable degree over time/use.
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"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
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mathieux46
Samba Member
Joined: October 21, 2006
Posts: 259
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 9:42 am Post subject: Re: Stock Spring Replacements |
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Hello,
To Christopher's point, you can't be certain the new spring will have the exact same spring rate as the existing springs. The stock spring rate is pretty perfected from my point of view. Non stock or aftermarket springs seems to always be stiffer than stock. I kept all stock springs on my vans and added spacers as required to compensate sagging or to create lift.
BTW I can't find this table anymore which was showing all T3 OEM spring heights and rates ( syncro, HD, 2wd, carat, etc ), with the identification paint color marks. Somehow I recall it came from the syncro16 site but cannot find it anymore on the web. It was a great source of information. Does anyone have a copy and i yes could it be saved in the Vanagon gallery?
Thanks
Mathieu
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Franklinstower
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2006
Posts: 1896
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 9:53 am Post subject: Re: Stock Spring Replacements |
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| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
So...here's the question: If your current ride height is as you like it, why do you want to replace your existing springs?
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I would guess to achieve either a stiffer or softer ride at the same height. Personally, I think the front springs are too soft. Stock springs nose dive quite a bit on hard breaking. The whole lack of travel of the vanagon suspension is the real issue, but that is whole different topic.
Maybe the OP should invest into better shocks, rather than springs?
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'89 Westy - EJ25/22 Frank 4.44 5mt
'75 Miami Blue Sunroof FI Standard Bug |
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Christopher Schimke
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Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5391
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:49 am Post subject: Re: Stock Spring Replacements |
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| Franklinstower wrote: |
| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
So...here's the question: If your current ride height is as you like it, why do you want to replace your existing springs?
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I would guess to achieve either a stiffer or softer ride at the same height. Personally, I think the front springs are too soft. Stock springs nose dive quite a bit on hard breaking. The whole lack of travel of the vanagon suspension is the real issue, but that is whole different topic.
Maybe the OP should invest into better shocks, rather than springs? |
Yes, that was my assumption as well, and that's why I mentioned that springs don't lose rate (stiffness) with age.
So if he's looking for springs that are stiffer, he will need to look for something other than stock springs. The stock replacement springs (made by the aftermarket to be direct replacements for the original springs) that I have tested are very close to the original spring rates. So if he went that route, he may gain a little height (lost due to time and use), but he won't necessarily be getting stiffer springs.
Yes, proper shocks are a great way to tune the ride quality and handling.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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Franklinstower
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2006
Posts: 1896
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:19 am Post subject: Re: Stock Spring Replacements |
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I had a neighbor (but he moved) that was a Nascar crew. He had a bunch of cool tools in his shop, including a spring rate compression tool. So I had the chance long ago to measure spring rates on a bunch of springs...A lot goes into finding the right spring: rate, free height, ride height, # of coils....pretty cool when have the ability to truly dial in what you want.
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'89 Westy - EJ25/22 Frank 4.44 5mt
'75 Miami Blue Sunroof FI Standard Bug |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5391
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:36 am Post subject: Re: Stock Spring Replacements |
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| Franklinstower wrote: |
| I had a neighbor (but he moved) that was a Nascar crew. He had a bunch of cool tools in his shop, including a spring rate compression tool. So I had the chance long ago to measure spring rates on a bunch of springs...A lot goes into finding the right spring: rate, free height, ride height, # of coils....pretty cool when have the ability to truly dial in what you want. |
Yeah, that's true. I have a spring rate checker. It's pretty eye opening once you realize what's going on.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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L51C_75
Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2004
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:06 am Post subject: Re: Stock Spring Replacements |
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Thanks all for the feedback.
In regards to my question on why replace springs. Currently I am replacing all the worn bushings and ball joints. Just testing spring replacement "while I'm in there" and also given the high milage on the springs. The look ok when I removed them, with no noticeable corrosion on the coils. My pre-purchase inspection stated that the springs were "weak" and I recall it didn't sit level, but the rear spring perches are also rusty, so not sure if this is causing this. Sounds like if I'm happy with current ride height and the springs are not damaged, I should be able keep using the original stock springs.
I plan on replacing the shocks too. I'm leaning to the Bilstein B4 shocks for a couple of reasons (cost and availability). Would these be a good match for the stock springs? I have experience with the Bilstein B6 on my Daily Driver Passat, and I don't like the harsh ride of the performance oriented shocks, so not sure if the Vanagon B6 shocks are also stiffer? |
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Christopher Schimke
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Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5391
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: Stock Spring Replacements |
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| L51C_75 wrote: |
| My pre-purchase inspection stated that the springs were "weak" and I recall it didn't sit level, but the rear spring perches are also rusty, so not sure if this is causing this. Sounds like if I'm happy with current ride height and the springs are not damaged, I should be able keep using the original stock springs. |
The vehicle not sitting level is a result of the spring's "load height" mentioned earlier. This is common, especially for the type of springs the Vanagon has in the rear (called "mini block" springs). The small wire diameter of the coils on either end of the rear springs tend to lose load height faster than the larger wire diameter coils.
You can adjust the uneven ride height with spring shims. There are several on the market, but some are much better quality than others. If you want to post your ride heights on all four corners (measured from the center of the hub to the fender lip), I can help you figure out what spacer thickness(es) would be best.
| L51C_75 wrote: |
| I plan on replacing the shocks too. I'm leaning to the Bilstein B4 shocks for a couple of reasons (cost and availability). Would these be a good match for the stock springs? I have experience with the Bilstein B6 on my Daily Driver Passat, and I don't like the harsh ride of the performance oriented shocks, so not sure if the Vanagon B6 shocks are also stiffer? |
I know Bilsteins are popular, and I'm sure some will completely disagree with my comments here, but they are honestly the last shocks I would run on a Vanagon. Okay, well, KYB's are worse, but you get my point. In my opinion, second to the KYB's, Bilsteins offer the worst ride characteristics of any of the shocks available for the 2wd Vanagon. And I'm a big fan of Bilsteins on other vehicles, but not on the Vanagon. This is the reason I do not offer them in my shop.
Stock Sachs shocks are good if your van isn't too heavy. However, if you run heavy, they could be overwhelmed which would result in a floaty ride quality.
Konis are going to be very smooth on the slow, undulating type bumps, but tend to be a bit harsh on things like expansion joints, pot holes, etc.
In my opinion, Spax shocks offer the best compromise, and they are compression/rebound adjustable to allow you to tailor the ride characteristics to your liking.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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Schuylersister
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2010
Posts: 198
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: Stock Spring Replacements |
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| Following this tread and also reading other advice from suppliers. I have GW no-lift progressive springs and BilsteinHD shocks front and rear. Something has changed recently with ride quality and leaning. Considering replacing the rear shocks which are starting to seep and maybe installing Schwenk springs all around. Really don’t want adjustable shocks. Thoughts? |
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teej
Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2010
Posts: 897
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 5:08 am Post subject: Re: Stock Spring Replacements |
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| Quote: |
| My pre-purchase inspection stated that the springs were "weak" and I recall it didn't sit level, but the rear spring perches are also rusty, so not sure if this is causing this. |
If you decide to replace the rear spring perches, I suggest comparing the different offerings. Not all of them have the indentation for the end of the spring coil like the originals. Find ones that have that. I did not realize this, and after having a version without the indentation installed along with new Shwenk springs, there was a noticeable clunk at low speed highly articulated maneuvering. Annoying with all new parts. After alot of head scratching, I ended up slipping some old heater hose over the spring ends which helped.
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1986+ Wolfsburg Weekender Pop-Top 2.3 WBX Manual Trans |
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Schuylersister
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2010
Posts: 198
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:34 am Post subject: Re: Stock Spring Replacements |
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| teej wrote: |
| Quote: |
| My pre-purchase inspection stated that the springs were "weak" and I recall it didn't sit level, but the rear spring perches are also rusty, so not sure if this is causing this. |
If you decide to replace the rear spring perches, I suggest comparing the different offerings. Not all of them have the indentation for the end of the spring coil like the originals. Find ones that have that. I did not realize this, and after having a version without the indentation installed along with new Shwenk springs, there was a noticeable clunk at low speed highly articulated maneuvering. Annoying with all new parts. After alot of head scratching, I ended up slipping some old heater hose over the spring ends which helped. |
Curious about the weight of your weekender? My van is also a weekender with a custom kitchen so lighter then a full Westy camper. Weighed in at 4600#s loaded for my recent trip. What choices did you make for shocks? |
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teej
Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2010
Posts: 897
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:37 am Post subject: Re: Stock Spring Replacements |
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^ I don't know the weight of our rig. It does not have a kitchen, but does have a second battery, fridge, tools, and usually gear, dog, etc, so I think probably fairly typical for the class.
I have had the Bilstein HDs for about 10 years, they are better than the previous KYB's but that is not saying much. Great on pavement, on rougher roads, gravel, bumpy dirt, not so much.
I went with the Schwenk springs all around a few years ago when replacing the rear perches. If I were to do it again, I wouldn't. The height did not change much, ride became a little harsher in my opinion, and based on further research the 86 weekender stock springs would have been fine to keep running.
I may try some different shocks.
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1986+ Wolfsburg Weekender Pop-Top 2.3 WBX Manual Trans |
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Schuylersister
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2010
Posts: 198
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 6:18 am Post subject: Re: Stock Spring Replacements |
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| teej wrote: |
^ I don't know the weight of our rig. It does not have a kitchen, but does have a second battery, fridge, tools, and usually gear, dog, etc, so I think probably fairly typical for the class.
I have had the Bilstein HDs for about 10 years, they are better than the previous KYB's but that is not saying much. Great on pavement, on rougher roads, gravel, bumpy dirt, not so much.
I went with the Schwenk springs all around a few years ago when replacing the rear perches. If I were to do it again, I wouldn't. The height did not change much, ride became a little harsher in my opinion, and based on further research the 86 weekender stock springs would have been fine to keep running.
I may try some different shocks. |
Thank you! I too have Bilstein HD shocks but the rears need to be replaced. I have GW progressive springs and not sure if they are the best for my travel style. I really do like getting off road sometimes. |
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Seleniris
Samba Member
Joined: February 27, 2021
Posts: 10
Location: Great Basin
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Stock Spring Replacements |
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I’m finding this discussion helpful as well. I have a 1987 full camper, original 2.1 engine and transmission. I’m not carrying heavy loads - just the normal dog and camping equipment. And I do tend to get off the pavement, mostly Forest Service roads.
I recently replaced stock springs with GoWesty springs and I regret it. I was running Bilstein HD shocks with the stock springs and now I realize that I should have started with just replacing the shocks. I measured my ride height of the stock springs before installing the GW springs and the measurements were fairly close to each other and not much sag had occurred.
I thought I was “improving” the situation but now I realize maybe not. I still have my original stock springs and am considering putting them back on, along with all new bushings and T3 anti-sway bar that were already installed. New Schwenk springs are obviously an option too but I’m worried now about making yet another mistake, especially because of the spring installation labor cost. And then there is the question of what shocks. Thanks for everyone's thoughts on that issue.
Keeping the vehicle as close to stock as possible is important to me but I was trying to improve the safety factor of handling on windy interstates and being pushed around.
Thanks for the discussion!
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1987 VW Westfalia camper 2.1 manual |
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candyman
Samba Trout Slayer
Joined: December 20, 2003
Posts: 2694
Location: Missoula MT
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:19 am Post subject: Re: Stock Spring Replacements |
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| teej wrote: |
^ I don't know the weight of our rig. It does not have a kitchen, but does have a second battery, fridge, tools, and usually gear, dog, etc, so I think probably fairly typical for the class.
I have had the Bilstein HDs for about 10 years, they are better than the previous KYB's but that is not saying much. Great on pavement, on rougher roads, gravel, bumpy dirt, not so much.
I went with the Schwenk springs all around a few years ago when replacing the rear perches. If I were to do it again, I wouldn't. The height did not change much, ride became a little harsher in my opinion, and based on further research the 86 weekender stock springs would have been fine to keep running.
I may try some different shocks. |
X2 on the schwenk springs. Added them to my syncro westy and wow so harsh I hate it. Any tiny pothole or uneven lip in the road and wham! Installing them sucked so bad that i have not yet got around to pulling them and reinstalling my stock springs but plan to this summer. I run ome shocks for the last 10 years and no issue with those, but hate the schwenk springs i added two years ago |
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jimf909 
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Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 7468
Location: WA/ID
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:43 am Post subject: Re: Stock Spring Replacements |
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| Schuylersister wrote: |
| Something has changed recently with ride quality and leaning. Thoughts? |
Twice in the past 10 years 'something changed' with the handling of my Vanagon with noticeable leaning where before it felt much more solid. Both times the end link on the anti-sway bar failed (once OE, once aftermarket). You may already have checked, but if something changed causing it to lean more it could be a failed anti-sway bar or end links.
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| Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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syncrodoka
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Joined: December 27, 2005
Posts: 12006
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:50 am Post subject: Re: Stock Spring Replacements |
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| candyman wrote: |
| teej wrote: |
I went with the Schwenk springs all around a few years ago when replacing the rear perches. If I were to do it again, I wouldn't. The height did not change much, ride became a little harsher in my opinion, and based on further research the 86 weekender stock springs would have been fine to keep running.
I may try some different shocks. |
X2 on the schwenk springs. Added them to my syncro westy and wow so harsh I hate it. |
Which version, stock height or lifted? |
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Mateo83
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Location: Lodi, CA
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